Choosing an HVLP system - recommendations?

[Scott B.]

Carolina

Good choice...Apollo makes finely crafted, precision systems. Good folks too.

 

[junk731]

Carolina

My CAT guns as well as the Devilbiss are all HVLP with a working pressure of 30 psi. If you took the course at Mcfaddens you most likely used the same guns.

http://www.spraycat.com/hvlp.html

When did HVLP become exclusive to Turbine guns?

While 11 to 14 cfm is the recommended delivery rate for a lot of spray guns it's not the definitive number, it has to be tailored to individual situations, hence the recommendation by my compressor supplier.

John

 

[CarolinaNomad]

I miss spoke.  When I said HVLP, I was referring to a turbine system.    Just so I can correct my mistake, all the guns mentioned in my previous post are HVLP guns.  And I truly liked McFadden's setup.  I move around to much to have a big air compressor.

What I was trying to say, you can get great results with a turbine system or an air compressor system.  It's just that, the best turbine system can't deliver more than 11 cfm.  So, your technique of spray painting is slower than a system that can deliver that much air.  But the only way to deliver that much air is an air compressor that has a big tank and can deliver high volume at low pressure.  And when looking into air compressors, correct me if I'm wrong, but the better air compressors needs 3 phase electrical system.

Truly, the correct answer depends on Limestone Mike's projects, available space and money.  Either way, they both have their draw backs.

Just to throw a wrench into the subject, just because.  You can connect two air compressors together to yield 11 cfm plus.  If you have a smaller air compressor, you can connect a tank to the air delivery system.  Secondly, I purchased the Asturo R Series (5 CFM @30 (4.5 CFM@40)) which matched my 4 gallon air compressor.  It worked great for lacquer paint, but I couldn't spray a big surface without the air compressor running out of air.  At high volume of air, the tank depletes rapidly.

 

[junk731]

Carolina

I wasn't trying to put you on the spot but too many people on too many forums are getting confused and the assumptions are you only get HVLP from turbine guns.

Like I stated previously my shop system runs on a portable 20 gal. compressor (Omega built in Orrilla, Ontario) that runs on 120v. It can be easily taken to jobsites. When spraying large panels (4 x 8 sheets) it never runs out of air but does run continuously. It fits under one of my stationary work benches and takes up 6 square feet of area. While I agree bigger and better is always nice in the 4-5 years of running this setup it has never given any need to go bigger. The cost of this combination with one CAT gun is about $1200.00 CDN.

If I ever was to go bigger I would probably opt. for a hardwired 220v in either single or 3 phase. There are lots of good 220v single phase compressors out there.

I think the gray area most don't consider when dealing with a compressor is the actual performance that they need. In my case I needed a setup that could be used to finish the cabinets and millwork I produce for my clients, this allows me to use an underrated setup. I would be in a totally different need category if my jobs entailed the need to spray continuously all day. In this situation I would need a setup that delivered the full manufactures recommended CFM. I was fortunate to have a person recommended to me that listened to what my usage was going to entail and selected a compressor that would fill that need. 

I completely agree with all your other comments, every setup has its drawbacks and money/space trumps all.

John

 

[tiralie]

....every setup has its drawbacks and money/space trumps all.

Yep!  [wink]
Tim

 

[mastercabman]

I miss spoke.  When I said HVLP, I was referring to a turbine system.    Just so I can correct my mistake, all the guns mentioned in my previous post are HVLP guns.  And I truly liked McFadden's setup.  I move around to much to have a big air compressor.

What I was trying to say, you can get great results with a turbine system or an air compressor system.  It's just that, the best turbine system can't deliver more than 11 cfm.  So, your technique of spray painting is slower than a system that can deliver that much air.  But the only way to deliver that much air is an air compressor that has a big tank and can deliver high volume at low pressure.  And when looking into air compressors, correct me if I'm wrong, but the better air compressors needs 3 phase electrical system.

I think you have your psi and cfm mix up
Turbine can put out high cfm  but low psi
Most can put out 80-130 cfm but at best 10 psi
Compressor can give high psi  120-135 or more but much lower cfm (depending on the compressor)
I have an Asturo 5008 and uses 6-7 cfm @29 psi.
I can hook up 2 compressor to spray with no problem

 

[tiralie]

Hi Tim

Thanks so much for your suggesion to take the Finishing School course at McFaddens. I learned alot; it was well worth the time and travel.

One question I am hoping you can help me with.

The rep teaching the course was adamant that turbine driven guns are only useful for small touch up jobs done on-site. He said that compressor driven guns were the only way to go for a shop setup. Most of us at the course were small shops, with 1 to 2 persons, not production shops.

I was ready to buy a Fuji Q4 or similar, but now am re-thinking/confused.

What are your thoughts/experiences with the air supply?

Thanks in advance,

Mike

Mike:
Sorry I didn't see your post earlier.

I disagree with the rep. I believe a turbine is perfect for use in a small shop and you can obtain as good a finish with a turbine as you can with a compressed air system. At the very least, a small shop can't really go wrong with a turbine or compressed air system like Junk (John) uses. I was convinced by a pro who had used every type of spray equipment available, that at the very least a turbine system would be an asset to providing a service larger shops just didn't or couldn't provide. There is always a need for on site spraying or small one off projects where these systems become extremely useful. I would agree a compressed air system like the one at MacFaddens is easier to get a great finish with, but it's also more expensive. With some creativity and ingenuity you can get the same results using a turbine system.

As I have mentioned in other posts, some heavier viscosity coatings can be a challenge to your patience but where there is a will there is a way. With time and experience I believe there is always a finishing schedule that is compatible with the characteristics of a turbine system that will allow you to achieve your objectives.

I really enjoy using my Fuji system, it's extremely convienent and the results are as good as those I can achieve from my CAT system, albeit somewhat slower. I would recommend a Fuji or a similar system to anyone who wants to spray a finish.

Hope that helps. You are still welcome to visit and try out the Fuji and compare it to the CAT.
Tim

 

[Scott B.]

Hi Tim

Thanks so much for your suggesion to take the Finishing School course at McFaddens. I learned alot; it was well worth the time and travel.

One question I am hoping you can help me with.

Mike:
Sorry I didn't see your post earlier.

I disagree with the rep. I believe a turbine is perfect for use in a small shop and you can obtain as good a finish with a turbine as you can with a compressed air system. At the very least, a small shop can't really go wrong with a turbine or compressed air system like Junk (John) uses. I was convinced by a pro who had used every type of spray equipment available, that at the very least a turbine system would be an asset to providing a service larger shops just didn't or couldn't provide. There is always a need for on site spraying or small one off projects where these systems become extremely useful. I would agree a compressed air system like the one at MacFaddens is easier to get a great finish with, but it's also more expensive. With some creativity and ingenuity you can get the same results using a turbine system.

As I have mentioned in other posts, some heavier viscosity coatings can be a challenge to your patience but where there is a will there is a way. With time and experience I believe there is always a finishing schedule that is compatible with the characteristics of a turbine system that will allow you to achieve your objectives.

I really enjoy using my Fuji system, it's extremely convienent and the results are as good as those I can achieve from my CAT system, albeit somewhat slower. I would recommend a Fuji or a similar system to anyone who wants to spray a finish.

Hope that helps. You are still welcome to visit and try out the Fuji and compare it to the CAT.
Tim

Tim

I agree. You can do alot with a 5 stage turbine and a 2.5 gallon hopper. I would take that over external compressor driven system any day for so many reasons.

I think cabinet shops that prefer the compressor alternative feel that way because they already have a pricy shop air system in place. At that point, it makes sense not to purchase a turbine.

But for more entry level folks, and even pros like myself, turbine powered HVLP is a great all around option.

We do run some of our sprayers (the Kremlin and Graco pneumatics) by compressed air, but its just simple to keep the HLVP grav and cup guns on turbines. We went through about 4 compressors before landing on one that could keep up with the pneumatic pumps. Even then, its an extra step to dry the air being delivered, and it is by no means portable. Portability makes a system much easier to use and get a return on the investment quicker.

This discussion reminds me of discussions I have had about Festool air sanders. Same concept. Those shops that have shop air will go for air sanders much more than the average user.

 

[tiralie]

I agree. You can do alot with a 5 stage turbine and a 2.5 gallon hopper. I would take that over external compressor driven system any day for so many reasons.

This makes sense to me. You are a pro and have a lot of experience with many different coatings and equipment and know what you want to achieve and how to use the tools to accomplish your goals. This is much different than someone who has never or had very limited spray experience.

I think cabinet shops that prefer the compressor alternative feel that way because they already have a pricy shop air system in place. At that point, it makes sense not to purchase a turbine.

Maybe, but I still think it's easier for the "inexperienced" user to get a "good" finish with a compressed air system. I think this is partly due to the fact that those systems force you to understand the components (guns, compressors, hoses etc.) before you lay any paint down whereas the turbine systems make it so convenient to just start spraying out of the box.

But for more entry level folks, and even pros like myself, turbine powered HVLP is a great all around option.

I disagree here at least for now. My limited experience seems to indicate that for entry level folks Turbine systems are harder to learn on than compressed air systems. For me there just isn't the same feedback I get from compressed air spraying. For me the spray from a turbine system is so soft, it's difficult to "feel" and understand how much coating is actually being applied to the substrate. If you don't know what to look for or know what you need to achieve you can run into problems and blame the equipment.

Again, my opinions are well, just my opinions. I always believe there is a good chance I am wrong.

Tim

 

[Scott B.]

I agree. You can do alot with a 5 stage turbine and a 2.5 gallon hopper. I would take that over external compressor driven system any day for so many reasons.

This makes sense to me. You are a pro and have a lot of experience with many different coatings and equipment and know what you want to achieve and how to use the tools to accomplish your goals. This is much different than someone who has never or had very limited spray experience.

I think cabinet shops that prefer the compressor alternative feel that way because they already have a pricy shop air system in place. At that point, it makes sense not to purchase a turbine.

Maybe, but I still think it's easier for the "inexperienced" user to get a "good" finish with a compressed air system. I think this is partly due to the fact that those systems force you to understand the components (guns, compressors, hoses etc.) before you lay any paint down whereas the turbine systems make it so convenient to just start spraying out of the box.

But for more entry level folks, and even pros like myself, turbine powered HVLP is a great all around option.

I disagree here at least for now. My limited experience seems to indicate that for entry level folks Turbine systems are harder to learn on than compressed air systems. For me there just isn't the same feedback I get from compressed air spraying. For me the spray from a turbine system is so soft, it's difficult to "feel" and understand how much coating is actually being applied to the substrate. If you don't know what to look for or know what you need to achieve you can run into problems and blame the equipment.

Again, my opinions are well, just my opinions. I always believe there is a good chance I am wrong.

Tim

There's no right or wrong on this one. Its mostly just what works best for each users needs. I do think its important to point out that the new generation 5 stage turbines are quantum leaps ahead of 3 stage units from a decade ago. Some even have controls at the turbine now. Apollo seems to have done a really good job of forcing the user to be understand whats going on, and that is a good thing.

I am expecting a shift, though, where manufacturers put complete control right at the gun, where it should be. I hope that starts to come more into play in the next couple of years.

It's a very interesting discussion and its good that both turbine and compressor driven systems are being explained here.

 

[junk731]

Part of the problem when discussing this subject, which I think is relevant, is the time frame in which decisions to purchase systems are made. These systems really haven't been around that long and part of the early problems with earlier turbine systems are forgotten or just not mentioned.  The amount of hot air they produce and the insufficient air delivery. Its just been recently that the 5 stage units have appeared that have helped with some of the problems. Air compressor driven systems are a time tested, proven method of applying finish with the easiest learning curve.

John

 

[tiralie]

My go to finish for most all my uncoloured projects is a coat of Blond or Garnet shellac to pop the grain and top coat with Target EM2000.

John:
You have piqued my interest, it's not that hard really. I thought you were using enduro var? I could have sworn it was you who introduced it to me?
Tim

 

[junk731]

My go to finish for most all my uncoloured projects is a coat of Blond or Garnet shellac to pop the grain and top coat with Target EM2000.

John:
You have piqued my interest, it's not that hard really. I thought you were using enduro var? I could have sworn it was you who introduced it to me?
Tim

Tim I played with Enduro-Var around the time we first met but I have always been a strong user /Advocate of EM2000 since Jeff at Woodessence suggested I try it for a project. At that time Lee Valley was the only source For General Finishes and only sold quarts. I do use General base and topcoat when people want a pigmented finish. I have tried most of the professional WB products available to us on this side of the border and still keep coming back to EM2000 for an amber tone clear finish and for those that like it, the EM9000 clear. I absolutely detest spraying anybody's house paint on projects and don't do them anymore, sorry mini rant. You would think that by this time they could make a products that dries and hardens fast enough to be stackable without sticking together, within at least 24 to 30 hours.

John

 

[canadamike]

John, Tim and everyone else,

Thanks very much for your input. I am still on the fence between a compressor/CAT combination and a Fuji turbine set up.

I will try to take John and Tim up on visiting your shops so you can explain your equipment and finish choices. I need some more in-person discussion before I spend the $.

Tim/John - who do you buy the Target finishes from?

Thx Mike

 

[mastercabman]

Mike
If you need help with turbine
Tim and tom can really help you with it
They seem to have a good and long experience with it
I can help you if you decide to go with a compressor system
There's a lot that you need to know for you to make your purchase

 

[tjbnwi]

A few weeks ago I went to a job where the finisher was having grief with Helio H20 WB Acrylic Urethane. Shortly after application tiny bubbles would appear in the finish while curing. The equipment was a 5 stage turbine. Single wet coat, double wet coat, material increase, material decrease, pressure decrease, fan change, no matter what the bubbles would appear. Passes were check for proper mil thickness with a gauge. Rep came out, checked for contamination, made some pass and the same occurred. Tried a few other gallons same results. He said it was due to using a 5 stage, and he's seen it before, went through the checking of everything to be sure. I thought "sure it is". Brought a partial gallon with me, shot it over bare, Seal Coat and primer with my Q4, finish was smooth as could be, no bubbles. The finisher order a Q4, shot the project with no more issues. Since then I've spoken with a few other finishers and one dealer, they have had the same issue with some products using a 5 stage. No one could come up with an answer to what was causing it and I would have called BS if I had not experienced it myself.

Tom

 

[Scott B.]

A few weeks ago I went to a job where the finisher was having grief with Helio H20 WB Acrylic Urethane. Shortly after application tiny bubbles would appear in the finish while curing. The equipment was a 5 stage turbine. Single wet coat, double wet coat, material increase, material decrease, pressure decrease, fan change, no matter what the bubbles would appear. Passes were check for proper mil thickness with a gauge. Rep came out, checked for contamination, made some pass and the same occurred. Tried a few other gallons same results. He said it was due to using a 5 stage, and he's seen it before, went through the checking of everything to be sure. I thought "sure it is". Brought a partial gallon with me, shot it over bare, Seal Coat and primer with my Q4, finish was smooth as could be, no bubbles. The finisher order a Q4, shot the project with no more issues. Since then I've spoken with a few other finishers and one dealer, they have had the same issue with some products using a 5 stage. No one could come up with an answer to what was causing it and I would have called BS if I had not experienced it myself.

Tom

I think what sometimes causes that is lack of pressure control on some of the 5 stages that are out. Which is why I am quick to look at the gun for solutions. Tom, if you decide to keep finishing for a couple more years, you will probably get to the point where you look at the world through a "395aaa" lens. Like, thats the all around standard, how does anything measure...things sometimes measure or even exceed some categories, but the realities of contracting these days keep us all looking at "across the board". I think its the closet minimalist in us all that makes us ask ourselves: "If I could only live with one..." or, "If I had to put just one in a time capsule..."

You know, all those mental exercises that keep us all sharp as the days go on.

 

[tjbnwi]

As you know I have a 395 AAA. One of the few times I bought a piece of equipment to do a job and then the job did not come through. I bought it to practice with before I needed to put it into service. I've run maybe 10 gallons through it. I do enough finishing to keep the Fuji busy, but not enough to justify the cleaning of the 395. I should sell it but that is not in my nature, just something I can't do.

I really do want to make it out to visit your shop, just was not in the cards this fall. I want to play with your Kremlin (not that is not a euphemism) to see how it works. You may have some new Graco toys that will be interesting to try also.   

Tom

 

[tiralie]

Tim/John - who do you buy the Target finishes from?

We both buy from woodessence in Saskatchewan.
Talk to Jeff, and tell him we sent you over. He's really a good source of info. Sells CAT, Fuji parts and Apollo HVLP etc etc.

When he sends an order from his shop in Saskatchewan it gets here quick, and it's packed well. Great service. There is a distribution depot in Oakville so it's convenient for me to pick up there but if he's out of stock there he ships directly from Saskatchewan.
Tim

 

[Scott B.]

As you know I have a 395 AAA. One of the few times I bought a piece of equipment to do a job and then the job did not come through. I bought it to practice with before I needed to put it into service. I've run maybe 10 gallons through it. I do enough finishing to keep the Fuji busy, but not enough to justify the cleaning of the 395. I should sell it but that is not in my nature, just something I can't do.

I really do want to make it out to visit your shop, just was not in the cards this fall. I want to play with your Kremlin (not that is not a euphemism) to see how it works. You may have some new Graco toys that will be interesting to try also.    

Tom

Yes, that would be fun. Some of the things we are looking at and working with are getting to be very interesting.

You would have gotten a kick recently out of Todd and I setting up a 395aaa to spray almost exactly one quart of material. We pulled off the rare front and back end chasers to get one quart to make a timely appearance out of 50 feet of hose when it counted. Learn something new everyday.