Cleaning equipment after sanding lead paint

[dataz722]

I have some old doors that I am stripping and sanding down and there is a good chance there is lead paint in at least a couple of the layers.  I got a RO150 and ct26 to help me handle it, but once I am done I am concerned about any possible lead dust sticking around.  Whats the best way to go about cleaning out as much as possible from the sander and the pad?  Is there more I can do other than just compressed air?  Also, I will of course be disposing of the bag that was used in the ct26, but is it necessary to change the HEPA filter too?  I'm assuming I can just run water through the hose and rinse out the bottom portion of the vac to handle those.

Thanks

 

[BJM9818]

I would be very careful about stripping lead paint.  Doors are easily removed and you can lay them flat and use a liquid stripper to remove the bulk of the paint then sand. 

I had a buddy who tried to salvage the interior trim on his house. Ended up with lead poisoning and his two small kids tested with elevated levels as well. 

If you proceed, I would start with a new bag, when done take the bag and toss it.  Wash the HEPA filter and wash out the inside of the vac along with the hose.

 

[dataz722]

I am taking all the necessary precautions.  Working outside in an area where kids and pets are not going to be anytime in the near future, wearing a full tyvek suit, respirator with new cartridges, dust collection, fan behind me blowing away, and a few other things as well.  And just as an extra precaution I have had my Dr. order me a lead test.

I didn't think the HEPA filters could get wet.  Will it not ruin them?

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Buy a Lead test kit and test your doors before you sand them (~$15). If they test negative, then its no muss, no fuss, just control the dust like you normally would.

If there is Lead paint, now you've got some issues to deal with. Lead is an element (a very stable one at that), so whatever Lead dust you produce will be around for the rest of eternity. Blowing your tool parts off with compressed air will only serve to distribute Lead dust around your home and property that will never go away. In many metropolitan areas, even the soil will frequently test positive for Lead due to the Leaded gasoline that was burned in the first half of the twentieth century.

There are extensive "How-To" guides related to EPA Lead best practices, but generally they involved bagging the area, and wiping everything down with trisodium phosphate. That being said, my memory is that the guidelines are to bag the entire vacuum and any other tools exposed to dust in a 6 mil garbage bag, marked as "Hazardous", and not open it again until it's in another controlled area.

If you insist on doing the work yourself, you may have to make peace with the idea that your tools are permanently contaminated, and keep that in mind every time you use/handle them.

You're probably time and money ahead hiring the work out to someone who can chemically strip the doors.

 

[TinyShop]

Have you considered wet scraping using the a Oneida Viper carbide scraper w/dust extraction? FWIW dry sanding, even if using certified HEPA dust extraction, is the biggest no-no of all when it comes to working around lead paiint. I don't know your particular situation, but might your work fall under the auspices of the EPA's RRP rule or your state's lead paint law (should one apply)? If so, you are required to be certified to do this work and you must do a whole lot more than just wear a tyvek suit and don a respirator. Even if you're not beholden under any laws, consciously allowing lead paint dust to leave a work area (like via the use of a fan to blow it away) is jusy really bad form. It will contaminate the area where it ends up and that contamination doesn't discriminate. I really hope you make an effort to religiously follow best practices so that you are not endangering others.

 

[RJNeal]

I agree with Tinyshop. Where are you planing on blow your dust to the neighbor’s yard with their kids?
I was lead removal certified, if anything you need to contain it.
Rick

 

[mrFinpgh]

Have you considered wet scraping using the a Oneida Viper carbide scraper w/dust extraction? FWIW dry sanding, even if using certified HEPA dust extraction, is the biggest no-no of all when it comes to working around lead paiint. I don't know your particular situation, but might your work fall under the auspices of the EPA's RRP rule or your state's lead paint law (should one apply)? If so, you are required to be certified to do this work and you must do a whole lot more than just wear a tyvek suit and don a respirator. Even if you're not beholden under any laws, consciously allowing lead paint dust to leave a work area (like via the use of a fan to blow it away) is jusy really bad form. It will contaminate the area where it ends up and that contamination doesn't discriminate. I really hope you make an effort to religiously follow best practices so that you are not endangering others.

If you use a hepa attached scraper, is it still a good idea to 'wet scrape' when dealing with Lead?  Or, is that going to be a risk to the integrity of the bag?  And as the thread asks, how does one think about the vacuum once it has been used to vacuum up lead containing paint dust or chips?

Some folks say it's fine either way
Others  insist on the need for separate 'lead only' tools. 
Still others say 'you should rinse the hose out, and continue to use bags a couple times'

What is the state of the art on these matters?

I've seen so much conflicting info about how to address tools after working with lead.  Obviously, they need to be cleaned thoroughly and probably wiped with simple green or some other detergent recommended for cleaning lead dust.  I think none of us want to be paranoid, but at the same time all of us want to do our best to realistically minimize exposure and risk to ourselves and others.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Have you considered wet scraping using the a Oneida Viper carbide scraper w/dust extraction? FWIW dry sanding, even if using certified HEPA dust extraction, is the biggest no-no of all when it comes to working around lead paiint. I don't know your particular situation, but might your work fall under the auspices of the EPA's RRP rule or your state's lead paint law (should one apply)? If so, you are required to be certified to do this work and you must do a whole lot more than just wear a tyvek suit and don a respirator. Even if you're not beholden under any laws, consciously allowing lead paint dust to leave a work area (like via the use of a fan to blow it away) is jusy really bad form. It will contaminate the area where it ends up and that contamination doesn't discriminate. I really hope you make an effort to religiously follow best practices so that you are not endangering others.

If you use a hepa attached scraper, is it still a good idea to 'wet scrape' when dealing with Lead?  Or, is that going to be a risk to the integrity of the bag?  And as the thread asks, how does one think about the vacuum once it has been used to vacuum up lead containing paint dust or chips?

Some folks say it's fine either way
Others  insist on the need for separate 'lead only' tools. 
Still others say 'you should rinse the hose out, and continue to use bags a couple times'

What is the state of the art on these matters?

I've seen so much conflicting info about how to address tools after working with lead.  Obviously, they need to be cleaned thoroughly and probably wiped with simple green or some other detergent recommended for cleaning lead dust.  I think none of us want to be paranoid, but at the same time all of us want to do our best to realistically minimize exposure and risk to ourselves and others.

Most contractors I'm aware of who work with Lead have a completely separate group of tools that are designated for Lead work and are clearly labeled as such. A fine from the EPA runs $30,000.00+/day/infraction, so it's a no brainer to double-up on tools. It's just the cost of doing business.

Anything you dispose of that has been exposed to Lead needs to be labeled as hazardous waste, bagged, and properly disposed of. This includes filters and dust bags, you can't just throw them out in the garbage.

Due to the liability exposure, if I determine that Lead is present at a house, I won't work on it.

 

[dataz722]

Buy a Lead test kit and test your doors before you sand them (~$15). If they test negative, then its no muss, no fuss, just control the dust like you normally would.

If there is Lead paint, now you've got some issues to deal with. Lead is an element (a very stable one at that), so whatever Lead dust you produce will be around for the rest of eternity. Blowing your tool parts off with compressed air will only serve to distribute Lead dust around your home and property that will never go away. In many metropolitan areas, even the soil will frequently test positive for Lead due to the Leaded gasoline that was burned in the first half of the twentieth century.

There are extensive "How-To" guides related to EPA Lead best practices, but generally they involved bagging the area, and wiping everything down with trisodium phosphate. That being said, my memory is that the guidelines are to bag the entire vacuum and any other tools exposed to dust in a 6 mil garbage bag, marked as "Hazardous", and not open it again until it's in another controlled area.

If you insist on doing the work yourself, you may have to make peace with the idea that your tools are permanently contaminated, and keep that in mind every time you use/handle them.

You're probably time and money ahead hiring the work out to someone who can chemically strip the doors.

I actually used 2 test kits (3 swabs since I actually dropped and stepped on one) and the test was "inconclusive".  The first one I tested was a door that was up in the attic and hadn't been painted recently.  It was cracked and peeling pretty bad and I tested both the paint and the wood that was exposed from the peeling paint and it was negative.  I also tested a door that I had already begun to strip and it was negative where I had hand sanded to expose all the layers of paint but when I hit an area that had been stripped but was still "gummy" from the stripper it was positive.  I don't know if this was just a false positive or not and somehow the stripped activated it.  So I really don't know, but I am treating it as if there is lead.

I agree with Tinyshop. Where are you planing on blow your dust to the neighbor’s yard with their kids?
I was lead removal certified, if anything you need to contain it.
Rick

No, I am not blowing it into neighbor’s yard with their kids.  It is a commercial property and the fan I have behind me is very small and just strong enough to keep what little isn't getting picked up by the dust collector out of my face and not nearly strong enough to move the air very far at all.  I am also covering a pretty large area in plastic to catch nearly everything that does escape.  The tiny little bit of dust that may escape the area I am honestly not too worried about because the land there is already not exactly safe.  In the 1800's it was a blacksmith shop and tannery so I can't imagine what all ended up in the soil from that.  To top it off the property next to us used to be a gas station that shut down in the 80's or 90's and apparently their tanks had some pretty bad leaks with both leaded and unleaded gas.  I am also removing the suit, and completely changing my clothes in the tarped area before I leave so as to not track any of the dust anywhere else with me. 

Is it a 100% perfect remediation?  No.  But I feel it is good enough for just a couple of doors once.

 

[RJNeal]

Dataz722, thanks for the update on your project. Sound like you everything covered.

Rick.

 

[mrFinpgh]

Most contractors I'm aware of who work with Lead have a completely separate group of tools that are designated for Lead work and are clearly labeled as such. A fine from the EPA runs $30,000.00+/day/infraction, so it's a no brainer to double-up on tools. It's just the cost of doing business.

Anything you dispose of that has been exposed to Lead needs to be labeled as hazardous waste, bagged, and properly disposed of. This includes filters and dust bags, you can't just throw them out in the garbage.

Due to the liability exposure, if I determine that Lead is present at a house, I won't work on it.

A fine from the EPA would be for a contractor failing to follow RRP procedures, or working on a pre-1978 house without certification.  Do RRP guidelines say anything about dedicating a HEPA vacuum only for lead cleanup?  Or is it a question of avoiding contamination during post-cleanup testing?

A caveat to all this is that I am a homeowner, so technically exempt from the guidance. 

With the disposal question, is that another one that only applies to contractors?  I was under the impression they had loosened restrictions around that in some locales in order to remove obstacles to getting the lead paint removed.

One comment I see a lot is that it's probably better to just hire it out to avoid the risk and complexity of following RRP guidance. I'm not about to ask for rates from anyone, but I'm curious about how much of a factor RRP adds to the typical scrape and repaint job? 

I've followed the RRP guidelines before and what I found is that I'd rather put my time into other parts of a project.    [laughing]

 

[dataz722]

Most contractors I'm aware of who work with Lead have a completely separate group of tools that are designated for Lead work and are clearly labeled as such. A fine from the EPA runs $30,000.00+/day/infraction, so it's a no brainer to double-up on tools. It's just the cost of doing business.

Anything you dispose of that has been exposed to Lead needs to be labeled as hazardous waste, bagged, and properly disposed of. This includes filters and dust bags, you can't just throw them out in the garbage.

Due to the liability exposure, if I determine that Lead is present at a house, I won't work on it.

A fine from the EPA would be for a contractor failing to follow RRP procedures, or working on a pre-1978 house without certification.  Do RRP guidelines say anything about dedicating a HEPA vacuum only for lead cleanup?  Or is it a question of avoiding contamination during post-cleanup testing?

A caveat to all this is that I am a homeowner, so technically exempt from the guidance. 

With the disposal question, is that another one that only applies to contractors?  I was under the impression they had loosened restrictions around that in some locales in order to remove obstacles to getting the lead paint removed.

One comment I see a lot is that it's probably better to just hire it out to avoid the risk and complexity of following RRP guidance. I'm not about to ask for rates from anyone, but I'm curious about how much of a factor RRP adds to the typical scrape and repaint job? 

I've followed the RRP guidelines before and what I found is that I'd rather put my time into other parts of a project.    [laughing]

I did find one local company that does hot dip stripping.  Their rates start at $95 per door and go up from there.  There is also a chance of the door splitting or warping since it is soaking for about a week in the stripping solution and then soak again in water to clean and neutralize the caustic chemicals used.  Since we have 7 doors that need to be done it was actually cheaper to get the RO150 and then I would have it for the future too.  Plus I was really concerned about the door getting messed up since it is very old, but also very light pine and would soak up a ton of water/chemicals during the soaks and god only knows how it would move as it dried.

Also, I forgot to mention before that I am stripping the majority of the paint of before sanding.  Tried just sanding on one side of the first door and I blew through sandpaper like crazy because it clogged almost immediately.

 

[dataz722]

Dataz722, thanks for the update on your project. Sound like you everything covered.

Rick.

Since you were lead certified and have experience, what did you find to be the most efficient way to remove lead paint?  I am trying to strip the majority of it before sanding.  Chemical strippers are not working too great on the oldest couple (likely lead) layers and a heat gun works decently well but is ridiculously slow and I have trouble getting the paint off the beads around the panels with the heat gun since I can't use a flat scraper and a pointed one just digs into the wood.

 

[mrFinpgh]

I did find one local company that does hot dip stripping.  Their rates start at $95 per door and go up from there.  There is also a chance of the door splitting or warping since it is soaking for about a week in the stripping solution and then soak again in water to clean and neutralize the caustic chemicals used.  Since we have 7 doors that need to be done it was actually cheaper to get the RO150 and then I would have it for the future too.  Plus I was really concerned about the door getting messed up since it is very old, but also very light pine and would soak up a ton of water/chemicals during the soaks and god only knows how it would move as it dried.

Also, I forgot to mention before that I am stripping the majority of the paint of before sanding.  Tried just sanding on one side of the first door and I blew through sandpaper like crazy because it clogged almost immediately.

How big are these doors?  Im thinking about what I use my RO150 for, and I would think the RO90 would be better for your typical door.

I've used peel away and citristrip for chemical stripping and both work, but I think Peel Away was more effective by far.  Only issue is, the cleanup is a big mess and you have to do something with all the waste water and goop.  This is especially relevant after neutralizing the peel away.

 

[dataz722]

I did find one local company that does hot dip stripping.  Their rates start at $95 per door and go up from there.  There is also a chance of the door splitting or warping since it is soaking for about a week in the stripping solution and then soak again in water to clean and neutralize the caustic chemicals used.  Since we have 7 doors that need to be done it was actually cheaper to get the RO150 and then I would have it for the future too.  Plus I was really concerned about the door getting messed up since it is very old, but also very light pine and would soak up a ton of water/chemicals during the soaks and god only knows how it would move as it dried.

Also, I forgot to mention before that I am stripping the majority of the paint of before sanding.  Tried just sanding on one side of the first door and I blew through sandpaper like crazy because it clogged almost immediately.

How big are these doors?  Im thinking about what I use my RO150 for, and I would think the RO90 would be better for your typical door.

I've used peel away and citristrip for chemical stripping and both work, but I think Peel Away was more effective by far.  Only issue is, the cleanup is a big mess and you have to do something with all the waste water and goop.  This is especially relevant after neutralizing the peel away.

They range from  28-35" wide and 76-80" tall and are 4 panel doors.  I debated between the 125 and 150, but went with the 150 after trying them both out and felt it was less jumpy.  I honestly never considered the 90, but sort of regret it now that I know it can take a delta pad.

I tried citristip and multistrip advanced.  The citristrip worked great on the top couple layers but not so much for the lower layers.  The multistrip worked fair for the other layers, but in the beading is nearly impossible to clean off and just sort of turned to goo.  I am going to try some acetone or mineral spirits and hope that helps clean it up.  I've tried to find peelaway, but haven't been able to find it anywhere around here.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Do you want to be woodworker or a paint stripper?

New doors that match your description are less than $125 each at HD.

 

[dataz722]

Do you want to be woodworker or a paint stripper?

New doors that match your description are less than $125 each at HD.

I looked and they don't have the right size and style and would be special order and over $300 each and take up to six weeks. They couldn't be cut down to fit either because they aren't solid wood.  It is a 150+ year old building and none of the doors are the same size and none are standard.  That was my first choice since it isn't just stripping and painting.  They also have skeleton key locks which need to be replaced with modern locks which means I need to cut out and patch the existing mortise from the lock.  That is actually the reason the even need to be stripped and painted to begin with.  If it wasn't for the locks 5 of the 7 doors would just be left as is.

Refinishing the doors was certainly not the path I wanted to take.  I hate painting and finishing to begin with, and stripping is far worse.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Bad luck! I feel for you...

 

[dataz722]

Bad luck! I feel for you...

Bad luck or bad choices?  I probably should have gone with a brand new larger "flex" building in an industrial park, but that is just boring and bland.  That's what I wanted until I found this place.  It was most recently (70's-90's) a cabinet maker whose shop was downstairs and he lived upstairs.  I completely fell in love with all the millwork and everything he did upstairs and overlooked how much a pain in the ass having a place that old would be.  I completely overlooked how complicated changing the upstairs rooms into offices would be and how terrible of a refurbish job the guy we bought it from did.  Its really turned out to be a nightmare.

 

[cgrutt]

I recently took the EPA RRP lead paint course the main point was containment of any dust thay may contain lead and cleaning work area afterwards.  Generally as homeowner you would be exempt from the requirements (certain states impose other requirements) but if you wanted to follow there's a ton of info on the EPA website.  Suggest keeping them indoors and not using a fan to blow any dust that escapes the HEPA extractor.  Rather put plastic sheeting down in work area including sealing off any doors or vents, etc.  You want to contain the dust in a small area not spread it around.  Sanding with HEPA vac is permitted.  Removing with heat or open grinding is not.  Chemical stripping would be permitted so long as you contain and dispose (properly) of all the fluids and residue.  Tyvek suit, respirators and all of the plastic sheeting gets disposed of in heavy plastic bag tied off with a "gooseneck" and residual air extracted with HEPA vac.  The class suggested nothing containing loose dust leaves work area; most everything was cleaned with the vac (including exterior surfaces of vac).  The dust bag would also be disposed of in manner above.  There was no mention of actually cleaning interior of hoses and vac but if you did any fluids would also have to be contained and disposed of properly.  Hope this helps.