CMS GE issue

bkharman said:
I was tagging Hans in as well. I have had the same thought about rigidity of the plate and was more thinking of a shallow route with my Shaper-O for the Incra magnalocks. I was going to use the magnet areas to also “shim” up and down somehow. Hadn’t gotten all the way through my engineering of it [emoji6].
Cheers. Bryan.

Hi Bryan [member=21412]bkharman[/member]  this is one of those quirky grey areas that Festool always seems to force people to wade in. They provide a great alternative for an on-site portable router table, albeit at a premium price.

However, at the same time, they are churning out a bastardized set of accessory router bit rings that are either flush with the router table, below the surface of the router table or proud of the router table. Some are high...some are low and some are "just right", that makes no sense at all. I expected better.  [sad]

Those Incra MagnaLock Rings are interesting, they are completely new to me. I think something along the lines of a reduced head thickness, fine thread hex bolt with an imbedded/recessed magnet would allow for ring height adjustment.
https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_MagnaLOCK_Ring_p/mlr-single.htm

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Sparktrician said:
I'm with [member=44099]Cheese[/member] on this one, but I'd use a small piece of aluminum duct tape at four points around the circumference of the ring.  Try it one thickness at a time.  I had to use a similar build-up on the main plate of the CMS-GE to get it level at the front.  [smile]

I just checked the ring height on my own CMS using a straightedge and Sedge's method of using yellow stickies to gauge the height of the black rings relative to the CMS' deck.  I had to use one thickness of aluminum tape on the outermost black ring to bring the ring set up to the same height as the CMS' deck.  I'd noticed that before, but had forgotten about the gap.  [member=59331]TSO Products[/member], any thought to developing a more consistently accurate ring set for the CMS?  [smile]
 
thanks all ,for bringing this topic back to our attention. As Bryan said, we discussed it a couple of years ago and nothing moved it higher on our project list.

We'll take another look at it and report back.

Hans

 
How great that you all liked the idea!
I was surprised that there seemed to be little in the aftermarket for these router modules.
But, now I know some of you have been into thinking and discussing improvements.
Thanks you guys for bringing it up again.

In writing to [member=59331]TSO Products[/member] - There might be quite a market in Europe as well. I know Germany is big, I even know that from Scandinavia these router modules are scarce at pre-owned sales.
My believe is that these are not items most owners will sell. At least not now when discontinued.
That doesn’t mean that it isn’t a market, more likely so - an ability to buy insert rings, plates that accepts more routers - with the option of a more proper router lift. (Although the two “lifts” that came with these modules isn’t really great - but the design of Festool routers more or less demands these special lifts - the earliest one is essentially a screw... [huh])
I guess there are  great number of router modules in the US.. once available I’d guess there will be a huge interest.

The adoption of an insert that has a shape of a “standard” router plate will enhance these modules into one of the most desirable router tables.
1. The CMS GE is in fact a true portable table. With legs up on a firm surface it’s great.
    Even with the legs down it’s good enough for router use.
2. Both the VL and GE accepts accessories such as in and outfeed tables - readily available.
3. The versatility and features, considering the great fence also, is not met by any competitor. So I think. - I researched a lot before buying - almost every other manufacturer has some L-profile steel sub frame, the fences vary, but most are pretty basic. To add to that they are fairly expensive compared to the package of Festool CMS OF. Even with it’s shortcomings.
The CMS OF is more or less identical to a scaled down stationary shaper situated in almost any woodshop here - I see loads of new and old shapers for sale here - pre-owned and new. Most look like the CMS OF - or more correctly: The other way around. Dust collection, fences functions, roller table - after using my CMS OF I could probably set up a large scale professional shaper the same way.

Speaking for myself, and judging by the interest here as well, I would definitely invest more in my table(s) - I’m considering keeping both modules, especially if I can make them even more versatile - and free my Festool routers more from the table and buy a second or two for table use. But I want the CMS OF functionality.
 
And just one more thing...:

I believe there’s strength enough in the modules themselves, you’ll move weight closer to the edges considering a rigid insert plate, and there’s always a possibility to sandwich from the underside. Or strengthen with some useful tracks - even on the underside.
The “old” table has large profiles running parallel to the fence, and one of them has a t-track in conjunction on the opposite side - the top, behind the fence - for some reason.
The newest table is completely flat on the underside.
The oldest table has really no option for insert rings either. The opening in the aluminium in this table is not compatible with the newer table either, it’s quite smaller in diameter.
But, its well constructed, in fact better than it’s successor.
 
This could work out great.  I took a Kreg router plate and laid it on top of the OF module:

[attachimg=1]

It would appear that someone would have to manufacture a new module that would incorporate the holes necessary to attach the fence but there is plenty of room.  I, for one, would definitely be interested in a replacement module that would allow me to use a conventional lift and a PC 7518 motor. 
 

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I think it would be great.
[member=396]HowardH[/member] - I really see your frustration. In an expensive and otherwise thoughtful and great product it’s easy to be let down by these quirks you have. As Cheese had with protruding rings.
I guess I’m lucky so far, as my rings seems pretty spot on.
Nonetheless, there are other issues as being totally proprietary to FT routers. (It is of course made by Festool - for Festool products) To add versatility of the option to use other routers could for some be additional value. Many will probably still use their Festool routers one the table anyhow. Amd with added strengths to the whole package, it becomes even more Festool spirit to it!  [big grin]
I’m eager to have a project as yours, I like the locking router bits versatility. Not being an Domino owner (yet..) This is more conventional, and traditional woodworking - and it’s visible. A signature of the maker.
 
I'm with you.  I absolutely love the setup.  I have the set so it has everything I could possibly need from a table aspect:  small footprint, superb dust control, great fence.  There isn't any storage, ie. Norm's table, but that's ok.  My back isn't as good as it was 30 years ago so having to bend over and reach under the table to reach the bit release/tightening mechanism is a bit of a pain... literally.  One negative I just thought of.  You would lose the dust collection out the bottom.  However, my experience shows the majority of the DC occurs with the bigger hose attached to the fence.  I'm not holding my breath that someone will actually come to market with a product but I'll be watching for it anyway.
 
I love all of these thoughts!  I am an engineer by trade, so making thing is natural.  Making them better is my love! 

A couple of thoughts.  [mention]HowardH [/mention] , in regards to adding another router plate, it is easy to make one out of MDF or other wood instead of modifying your aluminum plate. I did a make one for a jigsaw before out of Baltic that actually worked great!  I accidentally made it into another jig a while back, but with another thread here, thought about doing it again. I also was thinking of making a “hole” to put my TS plate in on my table on the opposite side of my VL.

I also think there is definitely a way to replace the plastic parts that make up the attachment ring (grey) as well as the throat plates (black). I am thinking a nice pretty blue adapter ring with some ball detents to hold the throat plates in place. I would also have at least 4-6 grub screws to level the throat plates as needed. If we wanted to do aluminum adapter ring with magnetic grub screws and steel plates I think that would be awesome as well!

Glad to see a community that wants to make this better. It has bothered me since 2014.

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Interesting idea.  I wonder if MDF would have the strength and rigidity tho to hold up a heavy router and lift hanging from it?  The MDF plate would have to be very thin to be able to drop into the base and have all the attachments co-planer with the plate.  A direct replacement made out of aluminum may still be the ultimate answer unless I'm missing something.  Would love to hear other opinions. 
 
HowardH said:
I, for one, would definitely be interested in a replacement module that would allow me to use a conventional lift and a PC 7518 motor.

While I really like the PC 7518, the new router from Jessem which is in reality a Milwaukee router with a remote control head would be quite interesting in this role.
 
Sparktrician said:
While I really like the PC 7518, the new router from Jessem which is in reality a Milwaukee router with a remote control head would be quite interesting in this role.

Sparky [member=7493]Sparktrician[/member] do you have a link to that?  I couldn't find anything on the Jessem website.
 
Cheese said:
Sparktrician said:
While I really like the PC 7518, the new router from Jessem which is in reality a Milwaukee router with a remote control head would be quite interesting in this role.

Sparky [member=7493]Sparktrician[/member] do you have a link to that?  I couldn't find anything on the Jessem website.
I think he is talking about this.
https://www.vmtw.com/jessem-05200-pow-r-tek-3-1-4-hp-router-motor-with-evs-remote-control-box/

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cheese said:
Sparktrician said:
While I really like the PC 7518, the new router from Jessem which is in reality a Milwaukee router with a remote control head would be quite interesting in this role.

Sparky [member=7493]Sparktrician[/member] do you have a link to that?  I couldn't find anything on the Jessem website.

Cheesy one ([member=44099]Cheese[/member]), I looked earlier today for it and didn't find it either, but as I recall, it was mentioned in a post here on the FOG a couple of days ago.  Bryan found the same thing on VMTW.  If it's as nice as I suspect it is, it would be my choice for a stationary unit. 
 
Sparktrician said:
Cheese said:
Sparktrician said:
While I really like the PC 7518, the new router from Jessem which is in reality a Milwaukee router with a remote control head would be quite interesting in this role.

Sparky [member=7493]Sparktrician[/member] do you have a link to that?  I couldn't find anything on the Jessem website.

Cheesy one ([member=44099]Cheese[/member]), I looked earlier today for it and didn't find it either, but as I recall, it was mentioned in a post here on the FOG a couple of days ago.  Bryan found the same thing on VMTW.  If it's as nice as I suspect it is, it would be my choice for a stationary unit.
If only they added a lift control to it... that would be lethal!

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
bkharman said:
Sparktrician said:
Cheese said:
Sparktrician said:
While I really like the PC 7518, the new router from Jessem which is in reality a Milwaukee router with a remote control head would be quite interesting in this role.

Sparky [member=7493]Sparktrician[/member] do you have a link to that?  I couldn't find anything on the Jessem website.

Cheesy one ([member=44099]Cheese[/member]), I looked earlier today for it and didn't find it either, but as I recall, it was mentioned in a post here on the FOG a couple of days ago.  Bryan found the same thing on VMTW.  If it's as nice as I suspect it is, it would be my choice for a stationary unit.
If only they added a lift control to it... that would be lethal!

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well.. there’s these small linear actuators.. some work in very small increments. And there’s servo motors that typically work in short strokes. Most are 12/24V though.
[big grin]
 
We promised to take another look and report back:

Looking at the CMS laboring in TSO’s shop, we measured each of (5) Throat Plates and each of the (2) Centering Plates, using a Dial Indicator, and found results varying from .002” to 0.011”  below flush. What everyone seems to be seeing is the tolerance stack-up in these components.

We rarely find that this amount of recess matters when dealing with common parts in the flat position. If we need a high degree of precision for a particular small-part project, we resort to a zero-clearance table lamination made out of 1/8" MDF or HDF attached with doublesided tape. We’ve done this before. It works well for those rare jobs where it's necessary to be dead flush right up to the bit. 

We are not fans of running narrow parts standing on edge across a router because it creates additional problems beyond just hanging up on the throat plates recess.

The comments from Europe are enlightening – thank you!

So could TSO machine throat- and centering plates? – sure, that’s probably the easier part. How many woodworkers would buy a set? How would we reach them? How would we know how many to make or how many to base a selling price on?

We’ll follow your responses with interest.

Hans

PS: a completely different subject: “plates that accepts more routers - with the option of a more proper router lift” for the CMS.
 
Hey Hans, how about when the router rings are proud of the router table surface? That does present a problem.

Here's a shot of the router rings before sanding. One side was .023" proud while the other side was 012" proud. Not only are the rings proud of the table but they are also inconsistent from side to side.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

Check out the Woodpeckers square...very nasty.

[attachimg=3]

So here are the results after several hours of sanding with a ETS EC 125/150 hybrid.

[attachimg=4]

.001" proud on the LH side and .0015" proud on the RH side.
 

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bkharman said:
Sparktrician said:
Cheese said:
Sparktrician said:
While I really like the PC 7518, the new router from Jessem which is in reality a Milwaukee router with a remote control head would be quite interesting in this role.

Sparky [member=7493]Sparktrician[/member] do you have a link to that?  I couldn't find anything on the Jessem website.

Cheesy one ([member=44099]Cheese[/member]), I looked earlier today for it and didn't find it either, but as I recall, it was mentioned in a post here on the FOG a couple of days ago.  Bryan found the same thing on VMTW.  If it's as nice as I suspect it is, it would be my choice for a stationary unit.
If only they added a lift control to it... that would be lethal!

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Brian ([member=21412]bkharman[/member]) ! Somehow, the tags you have made did not result in any notifications... One of the customers has referred me to this topic.
I do remember we have discussed it and the only viable option I saw was to change the insert plate. The design of the CMS does not allow a good insert placement into an existing one due to added height. Let me revisit this, a fresh look may lead to new angles :)

Cheers,
Jerry
 
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