CMS or Precisio?

[AlexThePalex]

I'm thinking about buying a mobile Festool table saw. The other day I had to saw one tiny strip of wood and I realised how tired I get of putting up my current home built TS, which took about 15 times as long as the actual sawing.

As it seems I have two basic choices, the CMS system with a TS55 or TS75 and on the other hand the Precisio CS50 or CS70 pull saws. I realise most Americans here have little insight to offer on this matter since you can't buy them in the US, but there must be some European or Australian members with experience on these saws.

The CMS is mentioned very often here but I hardly hear anything about the Precisio saws. They look like marvelous tools though, as the name says, very precise and easy to set up and operate. The pull saw feature also appeals to me, I never worked with one, but it looks really comfortable and safe to work with.

On the other hand the versatility of the CMS also appeals to me, how you can use the TS saws steady and on their own.

Considering that the basic Precisio CS50 and the CMS TS55 cost about the same, 1280 euro, I'm not yet decided about one or the other and would seriously like to hear whatever you guys can share in this matter. For instance, how quick and easy is it to set up the CMS, how precise is it and what is the biggest stuff you can saw with it. Thanks.

 

 

[jo041326]

Hi Alex,
I'm in the same situation right now. I was about to buy a CMS system but it has some disadvantages for me:
1. you must have dedicated saw in it. Otherway you must always clip your saw to the module, so you are never immediately prepared for sawing.
2. when you want to mount your saw in the plate, you should unmount its riving knife and mount the CMS's. Or you could saw without it.
3. router plate looks really good but it costs 550E! For that money you could have complete Jessem or Woodpecker router table with their lift.
4. it's too small for even smaller pieces, so you must add extension table and sliding table (next 400E)

Precisio CS50 is a nice machine, but if you want to use the full advantage of it, you should buy the complete set which is 2000E.

So it depends on your style of work, needs and the space you have. I have quite small shop but decided to buy some small panel saw, because I don't need to carry my saw with me to site.

Josef

 

[paul_david_thomas]

I went for the CMS. However, I had the comprimise of using a TS55. If I were you, go for the TS75 to allow thicker stock to be cut. I have limited space, so the CMS was great, as I then purchased the router module - whilst expensive, it's great !

It takes me about two min's to drop my TS55 into the module. The first time i did it, it took about 15 minutes - but you learn pretty quick.

The CMS is also nice as I use it as an MFT/3 extension when I work with big things...

Also, having the ability of a TS55 or TS75 to cut down sheet materials is great - I really can't beleive how I managed with my old skil saw and no guide rail.

However, if I had space & spare money - a dedicate machine would be lovely. Alas, I don't have either. The compromise is fine and still gives FESTOOL's great quality cuts...

Paul

 

[hoedma]

Hi Alex,

I have the CS50 and it is brilliant. I discussed the CMS with my dealer for a long time but he said he had seen a lot of customer buy the CMS and then come back and buy another TS55 because they got tired of putting it in and out of the CMS. The pull action is very good and allows for very precise cuts. I have to cut over a hundred part (both sides) next week and the pull action is just the thing for this. I would advise to get the length guide (492095) and possibly the table width extension. Although the last one may be optional if you already own a MFT. I have not needed the sliding table extension but maybe that is just because I do not have one. I have also bought a Panther blade to rip oak blocks. Changing the blade is a breeze and it rips through 50mm of oak without any trouble.

If you do have the MFT3 you should also consider the option of extending that with the CMS (the one which attaches to the MFT) and buy the additional TS55/TS75. This will give you a wider table  to cut on and the flexibility of putting in a router or sander. I would still get the length guide though, this should work on the MFT3 as well and it can be adjusted to 0.1 mm.

You might just want to hold off of buying one just now, and wait until Festool NL have a spring or summer deal. Last year the length guide came included with the CS50 for instance. Festool Germany currently have an offer with a sliding table extension.

Good luck.
Mattijs

 

[iandoug]

I am a home hobbyist and I started with the CMS module & a T55 and soon moved to the Prescio CS50.  I now use the Prescio as my dedicated table saw and the T55/guide rail for cutting down sheet materials and I am very satisfied with this arrangement.  Personally I found the CMS/T55 a little limiting as a table saw setup, when compared to the Prescio.  Also, unless you have two T55s, it becomes a bit of a chore when you need to remove your T55 from the CMS module to cut down sheet materials.  It is convenient to have them both there at the ready and be able move from one to the other quickly

 

[Frank Pellow]

I just wish that I had the opportunity to choose between them.  [sad]

In the meantime, thanks for the information.

 

[greg mann]

I have one of the few CS saws in the country, a CS70, and I think most of what has been said is very accurate about the capabilities of the CS platform. Add to that the fact that it can do almost everything a miter saw can do, except crown at the spring angle and the fact it can only bevel one way. The sliding function is essentiall an upside down miter saw. I  really love mine. I do have the slider attachment, which gives another cut-off option as well. If one would want a jobsite saw that could eliminate the necessity of bringing along a chop saw this is the way to go. You get the tablesaw (think rips) and most of the chop saw capability, with easy changeover. It is harder to transport than a Kapex but not harder than a Kapex and a tabletop tablesaw together and the CS is way, way better than any tabletop saw. I feel like I have just started to explore the capabilities of my CS70.

OTOH, I also have two dedicated router tables so I probably don't value the CMS as much as others might. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have one though.  ;D

 

[AlexThePalex]

Guys, thanks for all your helpful reactions. I've been to the store this afternoon and had the CMS and Precisio demonstrated and I must say I am mostly drawn to the Precisio CS50. It is just a very nice all in one solution as far as sawing is concerned and very quick and easy to set up. I'm not a pro and I don't have to take it to jobs so I just want something I can store in my shed and take it out quickly when I need to make a cut. The CS50 seems perfect for that. The CS70 also looked really nice but it sure was a lot bigger and heavier and not something you set up just as quickly and easy as the 50. So my preference goes out the CS50 right now and I think I'll get a TS55 next to it for cutting sheet material.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Hi Alex,
I'm in the same situation right now. I was about to buy a CMS system but it has some disadvantages for me:
1. you must have dedicated saw in it. Otherway you must always clip your saw to the module, so you are never immediately prepared for sawing.
2. when you want to mount your saw in the plate, you should unmount its riving knife and mount the CMS's. Or you could saw without it.

I see, Josef. And this was exactly the situation I am getting tired of. Unfortunately I have no shop so when I have to saw something I need to build up my own TS and it is great TS but quite bulky. It is no problem when I'm building a cabinet and I have to use it for longer time, but many times do I have to cut only on or two small pieces and that's it. When this occurs I have to spend a lot more time building up my TS then the actual cutting I do.

Precisio CS50 is a nice machine, but if you want to use the full advantage of it, you should buy the complete set which is 2000E.

Gladly there's a vivid market for used Festools here in Holland so it's not like an official dealer is my only option. A used Festool is not like a used DeWalt or Metabo. If the previous owner has been just a little bit careful of his tools they're still in excellent shape. Besides that, I know some (un)official dealers who will let me buy new stuff at 80% and sometimes even 60%.

I went for the CMS. However, I had the comprimise of using a TS55. If I were you, go for the TS75 to allow thicker stock to be cut. I have limited space, so the CMS was great, as I then purchased the router module - whilst expensive, it's great !

I think I'd prefer a TS75 over a TS55 in a tablesaw. Unfortunately, it's gonna be a lot more expensive. Festool offers a CMS TS55 set for 1280 euro, but not a CMS TS75 Set. So for the TS75 I'd have to buy every part separately, and that's gonna cost like 800 euros more. For just 20 mm extra height, well, not an option for me.

I would advise to get the length guide (492095) and possibly the table width extension. Although the last one may be optional if you already own a MFT. I have not needed the sliding table extension but maybe that is just because I do not have one. I have also bought a Panther blade to rip oak blocks. Changing the blade is a breeze and it rips through 50mm of oak without any trouble.

Mattijs, thanks for your helpful reply, if it can rip 50 mm oak then it can cut everything I need it to cut. I mostly use pine and MDF. I think I want to get all the extensions though. The basic CS50's table is just a bit too smal for my taste, but with the extensions it becomes a nice platform with a large enough area for what I need. In the store I saw it can cut up to 61 cm wide with the extension, that's just what I need. The sliding table also feels very nice and smooth.

If you do have the MFT3 you should also consider the option of extending that with the CMS (the one which attaches to the MFT) and buy the additional TS55/TS75.

I got no MFT3 unfortunately. Until now my own built TS was also my worktable. It's quite sturdy and has enough surface. I do foresee an MFT3 in the future somewhere.

You might just want to hold off of buying one just now, and wait until Festool NL have a spring or summer deal. Last year the length guide came included with the CS50 for instance. Festool Germany currently have an offer with a sliding table extension.

Nah, I'm seriously NOT impressed with Festool's idea of special deals. The only special offer I thought was nice was when they introduced the new Multi Jet stream pad for the Rotex, when you bought 3 packs of sanding paper you got a pad for free. But guess what, they didn't offer it in Holland.  [mad]

Anyway, I know how to get my (Fes)tools cheaper anyhow.

 

[Nigel]

Hi Alex.
  It seem you have pretty much decided on the cs50.

   I reckon the cs50 is basically a cmsge with a ts55 locked in.The fence,sliding table and extensions are the same.The only other difference is the pullsaw function,(why the sliding table?)

    The way I see it the precisio has only one major  advantage over the cms,the ability to crosscut long lengths of timber at 90 degrees,Ok for housebuilding perhaps but  may be  easier with a chopsaw.You can crosscut shorter lengths accurately on the cms with the sliding table.

   The major advantage of the cms is the ability to take out the saw and put it on a rail..The tracksaws in my opinion are Festools best tools.Once used you really do wonder how you got by without it.

  Not only that but consider the router table,jigsaw and belt sander modules.The modules are easy to change or can be left in for transport or storage.You don't have to take the saw and module out for storage.

  If you are considering the cs50 and ts55 alongside, you may be able to afford the cms and ts75 which is what I have.

    As for precision,I can  say it's very precise with the LA rip fence and the cut quality is amazing.The 75 cuts at full depth effortlessly.

   The only problem is the changing of the riving knife blade guard.Its not difficult but fiddly.You don't have to install it and dust extraction is excellent with or without.I agree it,s a good plan to dedicate a saw to a module but in the case of the ts75 it's available for railcutting on bigger stuff .You are not just getting 20mm extra depth but a lot more ooomph.

  Good luck with your decision,I doubt you'll regret it whichever way you go.

 

[vlahtein]

...Add to that the fact that it can do almost everything a miter saw can do, except crown at the spring angle and the fact it can only bevel one way...

A few years ago I had a conversation with a Festool representative about pull saws. He told that pull saws have originally been designed for laminate floor installers. I am not sure if "laminate" is a correct word but what I mean is those about 1200mm x 200mm x 6mm plastic coated HDF-sheets. For longer pieces it is not as convenient as a mitre saw for mitered cuts , because you have to turn the workpiece (or the whole saw).
http://www.werkzeugforum.de/Uni_Stuttgart_Zugsaegen_schlagen_Kappsaegen.341+M58115915f8d.0.html

If you can read German, there is quite much conversation about Festool, Mafell and other pull saws on http://www.woodworking.de/cgi-bin/holzbearbeitungsmaschinen/webbbs_config.pl/search

 

[pingvinlakrits]

I have used the ts55 on the CMS, owned the CMS with the TS75 mounted and currently own the Precisio CS70 with some add ons.

The very short - cut to the chase answer is that the Precisio CS70 is quite heavy, though still portable. It does live up to the name "Precisio". It is fairly expensive, as are the add ons. The sliding feature I haven't actually used (and I would NOT haul/bring the CS70 if I was flooring laminate) and the 492095 rip fence is a must.

The CMS is quite attractive with the TS75 unit - it is incredibly lightweight (just the TS75 and the CMS frame and insert plate) and is very easy to haul around. It is trickier to set up to the same standard as the Precisio as there are a few extra adjustments to dial it in EVERY TIME you reinsert the TS75. I left mine in place.
The base is smaller than on the CS70 and this was what led me towards the Precisio CS70 as a "somewhat portable" lightweight (semi) stationary table saw.

I do miss the small foot print of the TS75 and CMS - and of course the low weight - though when ripping larger stock the unit needs to be supported in some way. The 492095 rip fence ia for the Precisio and does not fit the CMS unfortunately but the CMS rip fence of course fits with all other add ons.

Precision is ok to very good on the CMS/TS75 table saw  for most if not all on site work but not on par with a great stationary table saw. If I had space and would not have had to sell the CMS/TS75 to finance the Precisio CS70 I would not mind keeping the CMS at all.

EDIT: misspelling and wrong number on the rip fence corrected.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

The CMS is quite attractive with the TS75 unit - it is incredibly lightweight (just the TS75 and the CMS frame and insert plate) and is very easy to haul around. It is trickier to set up to the same standard as the Precisio as there are a few extra adjustments to dial it in EVERY TIME you reinsert the TS75. I left mine in place.

Hi there

When you talk about having to make adjustments every time you re-insert the TS75, do you mean inserting the saw into the module, or inserting the combiled module/saw unit into the table??

Forrest

 

[Mettes]

I have a CS 70, great piece of equipment.  It's not as portable as I would want it to be but you get a lot in return.

the bad:
- it's quite heavy and cumbersome to move around on your own.  Normally I take all my tools with me at the end of a day, the saw, if possible, stays at the jobsite more often.  I can carry it up a stair to the second or third floor put that's quite a workout.
- when you're cutting at an angle, you need to rotate The saw or the worksupport.  Not the most practical thing to do when you're changing back and forth between angles.
- to get the most out of the saw you have to get some accessories, and we all know they don't come cheap.  The rip fence and table extensions are great additions.

the good:
- you get what I think is the most useful tablesaw available on a jobsite.  This is priceless, rip full sheet panels to smaller piece with the guiderail en TS55 and cut them square and parallel on the CS70.  I often build cabinets this way for example when working under a sloping roof or staircase.  The table extensions are necessary for this kind of work
- making fitting pieces when placing kitchens and bathroom's on site, no need to drive back to the workshop
- power and precision combined, ripping solid wood is not a problem (with the panther blade) and cutting laminate or melamine is possible with the change of a sawblade
- good dustcollection
- fast and easy blade change
- ripping and crosscutting on the same machine
- you can mount the fence all around the machine making some impossible cuts possible.  

When you're willing to haul it around it's the best machine on the market without a doubt.  I have a Makita LS1013 that only gets put in the van when I'm sure that crosscutting is the only thing a I'll be doing, and that's not very often...

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Forrest:

I could not set the CMS/TS75 up to the same precision as the Precisio, it varied and it could be a fraction off at times and when making loudspeaker cabinets that kind of offset would amplify (pun possibly intended) and the pieces would not fit as snug, tight and dead on as pieces cut on the Precisio. 

 

[Nigel]

      I see the cs50 and cs 70 as different machines.The cs 50 is the same as the cms from the pictures.The cs 70 precisio is totally different unless I'm mistaken.To me the cs50 is a cms or very similar with the ts55 locked in,I'd rather have the versatility of the cms. The cs 50 even has the same size 1200w motor as the ts55 whereas the cs 70 has 2200w compared to 1600w for the ts 75.Of course I may wrong about this as I only have the cms and 75.

 

[goguppy]

Hi Alex

I have the CMS but cannot comment on the CS50/70.  Like you, I have very limited space and when finished for the day, I need to store the CMS unit on a landing I made in the roof space of my car port; I do this with a simple pulley system I rigged up.  I have the TS55, as any deeper cuts I can do by either turning the timber end for end for a second cut (ie up to about 100mm net) or on my bandsaw (400mm max capacity).  I also have the festool rip fence, sliding table and angle stop (mitre fence) for the CMS and together this makes a very enjoyable combination to work with.

Together with the Festool tracks this combination gives me all the flexibility I need (good table saw performance on the CMS, sheet cutting with the tracks and for deep cuts, including making wood turning blanks, I use the bandsaw) at the minimum of footprint and weight to move around.  As a hobbyist, I am not concerned about installing and removing the TS55 from the module before and after work, as each activity only takes me 2 to 3 minutes max.

I have recently bought the router module and OF1400 router and am very impressed with the quality of the router module fence. I have only used it a few times, but I have been able to do every thing I needed with the accuracy expected from a Festool accessory.

So, FWIW, if you are a non-professional and need accuracy with maximum flexibility, but with minimum footprint and minimum weight, it is hard to beat the CMS system.  (FYI, if you are a professional woodworker, you probably want dedicated power tools for the various activities.....)

Cheers

 

[jvsteenb]

Hi Alex,

I own the CMS TS 55, and was more then a bit annoyed by the fact that it wasn?t available in the TS75 variant..... I tried and tried, and talked my *ss off in the process, but TSS Tooltechnics just wouldn't give in. [mad]
I have a Basis 5A set as well that?s used to house my OF1010 and that?s more or less exactly where the CMS shines: it's versatile.
To top it off I have the table widening extension and the rip fence - both features that you really can't do without in my opinion.
I had the table lengthener, sold it, and regret that dearly....
The module to house my Trion is on it's way.

I had the opportunity to use a Precisio 70, and it's a superb piece of equipment - but given the fact that the portability is more or less theoretical, I'd prefer a decent stationary tablesaw instead. In my book the precisio 70 is moveable ( a big plus , mind you ! ) but not really portable.

In my opinion, the ideal combination would be a CMS TS 75 with all the bells and whistles, and a separate TS55 for rail use.
For very tough jobs, you could disassemble the TS75 for use on the rails but that wouldn't be too often. As it is, it's very easy and straightforward to exchange modules in the CMS, but it's a hassle to disconnect the TS55 from the CMS module carrier. OK, with a little practice it doesn't take more then a few minutes, but you get to unmount and store things from the saw, end remount them for rail-use. It would be great to have a dedicated TS75 module  - switching modules is a 15 second job.

For me, the portability is a BIG boon. I can easily carry it up to the 3rd floor, build whatever it is I have to build, and carry it down when ready.

The sliding rail extension that comes with the CMS TS 55 is a very great piece of equipment, and the Precisio 50 doesn't come with one. for really wide crosscuts it's a big plus. I even tried to shorten a door ( an old 830mm one as that's the the theoretical maximum crosscut width ) and it actually worked ....  [cool].You don't want to be without it, even if it's the single most annoying thing to carry around ( it slides easily, so you have to take care how to carry it as it's easy to dent a wall with a railpart that suddenly extends from the tablepart you're carrying, or vice-versa )

On the plus side, the Precisio 50 does come with the dual suction hose - i had to buy it separately for my CMS. It works like a charm, but in real life, I haul it around to the jobsite but mostly forget to hook it up and just use the standard hose to the TS55 instead. On the other hand, when routing with the Basis 5A insert and the OF1010 it's really a lifesaver.

I wouldn't want to be without my CMS TS 55, and I wouldn't trade it for a Precisio 50.  I've already made my peace withe the fact that a TS75 insert will inevitably come my way in the not to distant future. The ?900+ ticket is a bit of a hold-off so far...

Choices, choices....

Regards,

Job

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I own the CMS TS 55, and was more then a bit annoyed by the fact that it wasn't available in the TS75 variant..... I tried and tried, and talked my *ss off in the process, but TSS Tooltechnics just wouldn't give in. [mad]...

I've already made my peace withe the fact that a TS75 insert will inevitably come my way in the not to distant future. The ?900+ ticket is a bit of a hold-off so far...

I'm confused as to why you are annoyed.

Although the CMS table, TS75 module, and TS75 saw may not be sold as a complete set, why did you not buy the two or three individual components separately?

Either:

CMS-MOD-TS 75, 561269, 976,99 EUR + CMS-GE, 561228, 492.66 EUR = Total 1469.65 EUR

or

TS 75 EBQ-Plus-FS, 561183, 712,81 EUR (includes guide rail) + CMS-TS 75, 493360, 342,72 + CMS-GE, 561228, 492.66 EUR = Total 1548.19 EUR

Details of the combined saw and module (CMS-MOD-TS 75) are shown below:

[attachimg=#]

Forrest

 

[jvsteenb]

Hello Forrest,

I can see why you're confused.

The fact is that the CMS TS 55 Set is a sweat deal, and when buying the components separately, the price was about 300 Euro's up from what you'd get in the "package deal".  I really liked the set, but I just wanted the bigger saw in it..... and a more or less comparable "rebate" in the process. They wouldn't do it - too bad.

Regards,

Job