Cold weather lithium ion storage

[mishle]

Its supposed to get down to 10 deg F -12 deg C tonight.

Should I bring my batteries in or will they be just fine.

What is to cold for overnight storage of lithium batteries?

The only thing I could find online was not to freeze them and that they  freeze at -40 deg

The manual does say:

- Where possible, store the battery pack in  a cool, dry place at temperature betweeen 5 deg C and 25 deg C. (41 deg F to 106 deg F)

So what do you all do?

Back when I ran dewalt ni-mh I brought them in every night and I would get three years out of them to my friend 1 year that left them in the trailer.  ;D

 

[Ken Nagrod]

That depends on the brand of batteries.  Most likely, either way, they won't perform up to par till they're in a warmer (40+ F) environment, so if you're working outside tomorrow, it definitely won't matter.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I think it is kind of silly that a lithium battery needs to be pampered so much.

I still don't own a lithium battery tool.

I heard if you warm them up in the truck on the way to work they will be fine.

Seems like a hassle though.  

I can barely remember where my phone is in the mornings, don't forget to fetch the battery's and let them warm up too.

 

[grobin]

I have had more consistent luck with LIoN not getting them very cold.  Some of the premium brands like Anon Bauer or Frezzi don't seem to mind but others do better if they are warmed up een if they will be operated on the cold tomorrow.

 

[mishle]

Well the Milwaukee manual says room temp. What ever that is?

My wife thinks I should get a tool bag just to store the batteries so that they are always in a warm location.

So the only brands I have are Festool and Milwaukee.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I would be interested to see how the festool does vs. the milwuakee's (who has a horrible rep. for battery's imo)

 

[Chris Hughes]

I run Bosch and Hilti lithium batteries both of which I keep in my truck without regard to temp.  When I get on site I immediately plug my chargers in and pop my batteries in.  After a couple of minutes they are warm enough to function around peak performance.  If I am on site for a long period of time I just leave my batteries on site and only charge them when they need a full charge.  I have had my Hilti 14.4v for three winters now and the Bosch 10.8v for two.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I had two 10.8's and they both were horrible.

gave them away.

 

[Chris Hughes]

I like the little ones for cabinet installation.  Smaller is better.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I just don't really like compact driver's.

 

[Michael_MA]

Some general notes on modern LiIon Batteries..

General Lifetime 500..1000 Charge Cycles (full) depending on Temp conditions. Charge only, if empty. Do NOT keep them in charger.
LiIon batteries die chemically over time due to oxidation effects internally..  expected life time is about 3-5 years depending on the working conditions 
--> ambient temp > 30 deg C will significantly reduce life time !
...
Do NOT charge them below 0  and above 40 degree Celsius !   
If they are charged below 0, the electrolyte inside can develope gas, which trips a security device to release this gas 
--> broken battery
...
IMPORTANT: The operating range is 0 - 40 degree Celsius, below 0 the LiIon battery will not perform at full power !
--> in excess until you cannot work with the battery anymore..

And a final note on the intelligence of LiIon Batteries..
--> They know exactly how many charge cycles under which conditions have been applied.. and will tell this to the manufacturer on request

Funnily enough, there  is no word about found on the Festool site..

kind regards, Mike

 

[festoolsnob]

LiIon batteries are all the rage right now, but for power tools NiCd is actually an excellent durable high power battery.

I am so glad I bought a new C12 on clearance price.

That is a great drill, and those NiCd batteries will outlast the new LiIon by far

 

[Kevin Stricker]

That is a great drill, and those NiCd batteries will outlast the new LiIon by far

Keep dreaming........Li is the new rage because the batteries are better and last twice as long.

Plus, the batteries in your new C12 are already at least a year old. 

 

[Michael_MA]

Keep dreaming........Li is the new rage because the batteries are better and last twice as long.

And the Earth is a flat Disk [big grin] - sorry couldn't resist ..
...
It's true - Even though LiIon is the new Rage cause of size and capacity, NiCad Batteries can be used up to 10 years, when maintained properly.
But - the builtin chemical desease (oxidation process) of LiIon's limits the life to mostly 3 years, in seldom cases the battery can be used longer, but with severe capacity reduction.
The capacity reduction of LiIon is about 20-30 % per year due to degradation processes..
...
To get the full picture here, one should carefully read the following:
Disadvantages of LiIOn Batteries

kind regards, Mike

 

[festoolsnob]

I am serious, the reduced pricing on the discontinued drills are a great deal. The NiCd batteries on my CDD12, gave me about 10 years, and they are nearly dead. I mistreated those batteries, terribly. The C12, with the voltage cut off on the drill, is going to make those NiCd's last as long, and still be good.

I read up on the battery pro's and cons quite a lot, before buying the C12 in this day of LiIon, and I am by no means the expert, but these are two key strengths of NiCd, great for high current delivery, huge number of charging cycles they can take, running high temp. That is what you need in a high current device like a cordless tool.

At $281 for a new drill two batteries and a charger, that is a decent price. The C15 is going to be $500 plus, and is going to need new batteries in 4 years time, at probably $150 each. In ten years' time I am going to replace my NiCd's at $100 each. Or maybe then go with NiMh.

LiIon is a great battery, but a cordless drill isn't really the place where their strengths are going to shine. The humble old Low tech NiCd is good. NiCd needs some control and protection in use. Sadly every NiCd powered device I ever owned completely lacked any protection for the battery to prevent it from going into cell reversal. No wonder we all killed our NiCd's, and hence gave NiCd a bad reputation for "memory effect" total bs.

I have a few Milwaukee M12 LiIon tools, which now after one year are still fine, I will see in another five years how they are, my guess is that they are going to be dead.

Oh, to return to LiIon in cold weather.
I got a new smart phone about two months ago and my two year old GPS unit, I just left in my car, switched off. I guess the batteries ran down, it got cold a few -15C nights. I brought it inside, but it does not want to hold a charge. My conclusion, LiIon is a very sensitive device that needs proper care, or it will die. It is more delicate than one may expect.

 

[Kevin Stricker]

I agree that the C12 is a good deal for a Festool drill.  Believing that the batteries will last for 10 years is a bit optimistic in my opinion.

I do not believe that every manufacturer including Hilti and Festool would have switched to Li Ion battery technology ( and discontinued their NiCD lines)if they were not superior. Call me foolish if you will.  

As for the temperature argument, it is the circuitry in the Li batteries that shuts down at low voltage that makes them less effective in cold temperatures.  Let's just say the batteries are a bit overprotective and cannot discern between being cold or having a low charge.

As for the storage question, I never leave my drills in my car when it gets below freezing.  Just like finishes, glue,and caulk I take them inside.  I do not believe the cold damages them, but it definitely effects their performance.