Consumer Product Safety Commision (USA) may be making moves

It looks like the Bosch REAXX table saw may be on the way back to North America!  I found a link to the Bosch Canada website that says, "Coming Soon".  Bosch USA said "Unfortunately, as of the moment, we don't have a release date for the REAXX™ Jobsite Table Saw in the United States." when I asked the question.  That said, keep your eyes open!  Even if I have to make a run to Canada, I may be one of the first to get one after that SawStop patent BS expires.  [smile]
 
The Bosch Reaxx in Canada has not been affected by the lawsuit and court decision which applies only to the US market. It has always been available north of the border all this time, but it has been sold out in most local retailers because Bosch has stopped the production.

 
This thread reminds me of this story shared by someone on another forum years ago. I've saved it because Norm Abram used the dado cutter a lot -- sometimes bare handed, and I always wonder if the newbies who watched him realized the hidden risk:

"I'll share a dado kickback story in response to your question. I was in a shop where the most experienced woodworker among us was cutting a dado across the grain in 1/2" ply using the fence. He was pushing with his right hand along the fence when partway through the cut, the blade set's back teeth grabbed the workpiece throwing it forward and in the process dragging his hand into the blade.

The good part of the story is that it was a SawStop machine so the cartridge triggered and his cut was enough to bleed quite a bit, but not require anything more than some basic bandaging.

About 20 minutes later he insisted on demonstrating what happened and what he did wrong. A group of 5 of us spent 15 minutes talking about several root causes that combined to create the outcome.

One of them was his failure to use a push block.
Another was that the workpiece was wider than it was long which just increased the potential to lever away from the fence.
Another factor we concluded was that the table could have used a waxing because there was too much drag between this particular ply and the table surface. The drag only made the lever situation worse.
We also concluded that a dado blade set is the same thing as multiple blades in other words much more forward force fighting against keeping the workpiece against the fence and moving forward. This is a meaningful factor with just one normal blade. A 3/4" dado set increases this factor by 6x. Also lots of teeth available to grab.

I had my own theory that he was not keeping his attention on the fence to notice that the workpiece was drifting at the earliest point possible but he didn't mention it so I kept this suspicion to myself.

My co-worker said he suffered more injury to his ego than his hand, but had it not been for the Sawstop, I think his hand would have been mincemeat. I learned a lot from this fellow in general and thought it was very professional for him to swallow his pride and review the incident with everyone else."

Time and again, I've seen social media creators cross cutting a sheet that is longer in its width than its length, a potential cause for violent kickback. Some of these YouTubers either ignore safe practice or are lacking in their knowledge of safe practices.

Oh, since taking up the DF500, I've all but eliminated the need to cut dadoes on the PCS. The last time I cut (short) dadoes, I used the Kapex.
 
I got my first table saw (and only one) when I was about 45 years old.  No one ever instructed me on its use.  Kick back was an alien concept. 

From reading books and magazines, I was made aware of kick back and narrow stock getting trapped against the fence.

What I never read about was feeding short pieces into the blade. I did not get kick-back, but rather kick-up.  It tore off my fingernail.  I had to go to the emergency room for that.

It would have been better if I had someone to teach me the usage.  It looked intuitive.  Just keep your hands away from the spinning blade.  But there was more to it than that.  Happily, I think after 30 years, I am past the hump.  Only a lack of attention will doom me.  I repeat the mantra:  Focus.  Focus.  Focus.  Before each cut.  So far, that has been enough. 
 
There have been a few comments in this thread indicating that SawStop somehow has a monopoly or patent on the finger-sensing technology. By my count, there are at least five manufacturers (SawStop, Bosch, Felder, SCM, Altendorf, and I'm sure others) with some variation of flesh- or finger- sensing technology on their table saws, each a little different.

I'd argue that the Felder, SCM and Altendorf systems are safer than the SawStop system since they trigger/engage prior to finger contact, but that's splitting hairs.....

As a professional woodworker, I can't fathom going back to a "traditional" table saw, it'll be interesting to see if the industry ever migrates away from them (the way we did with radial arm saws).... I just can't come up with a traditional table saw task that can't be performed more efficiently and/or more safely on a different machine (slider, bandsaw, jointer, router table, shaper, etc....).
 
I predict that after US Consumer Products Safety Commission mandates these safety measures, that table saws will become obsolete.

Probably laser cutters will take their place. With no moving blade, stopping the “saw” would be greatly simplified.

In fact one “saw” will replace the table saw, the scroll saw and the miter saw.

I’m afraid that the spinning, reciprocating or chopping blades will be obsolete in the future.  They will be the equivalent of a film camera or record player of today.
 
MikeGE said:
To the best of my knowledge, riving knives and blade guards have been required for all manner of table saws in Germany, and possibly the rest of Europe, for a long time.  The riving knives and blade guards are usually easy to remove, but is not recommended.

As I drive through neighborhoods with housing construction projects, I see small table saws with the safety devices intact.  A site manager at one of my projects told me removing the devices places the company at tremendous financial risk should anyone get hurt.
Click to expand...

Ya, when you filter out the "I removed the safety guards" from the list of injuries, it becomes surprisingly small.  Go figure.  Hence my joke that they'll just crazy glue the thing down from now on.

 
Hipplewm said:
ChuckS said:
Interesting. Does that signal the SawStop finger-saving technology monopoly is soon coming to an end, and the new requirement may have something to do with it? Or, as you said, it may end up nothing.

I do hope that soon every new table saw manufactured, regardless of brands, will have the proven finger safety feature.
Click to expand...

If they all have to have it, then they will have to license the technology from Sawstop (Festool/TTS) and then they can put it on every saw.  That means the patent would become a "standard" more or less and TTS can charge reasonable fees, but must license it to everyone.  Sawstop started to lobby these guys YEARS ago.....
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From what I understand it is not requiring SawStop's tech. The ruling will require no more than a certain depth of the Saw blade can enter the user's body. This leaves it open ended for other safety systems to be used. SawStop's is arguably the worst option of the safety systems I have seen in my opinion.
 
Tom Gensmer said:
There have been a few comments in this thread indicating that SawStop somehow has a monopoly or patent on the finger-sensing technology. By my count, there are at least five manufacturers (SawStop, Bosch, Felder, SCM, Altendorf, and I'm sure others) with some variation of flesh- or finger- sensing technology on their table saws, each a little different.

I'd argue that the Felder, SCM and Altendorf systems are safer than the SawStop system since they trigger/engage prior to finger contact, but that's splitting hairs.....

As a professional woodworker, I can't fathom going back to a "traditional" table saw, it'll be interesting to see if the industry ever migrates away from them (the way we did with radial arm saws).... I just can't come up with a traditional table saw task that can't be performed more efficiently and/or more safely on a different machine (slider, bandsaw, jointer, router table, shaper, etc....).
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter, once this system becomes "Mandatory" then Sawstop will have to license at "Reasonable" rates, so they won't be able charge whatever they want etc.  Once the patent runs out, they will stop getting royalties

I would imagine the sawstop method will be adopted by most as it would be semi easy to retofit on most saws as they have a system for each size of saw already made.
 
For what it's worth, I don't think the regulations would render table saws obsolete, but the lawsuits could.

This past Summer I spoke with my local Makita representative and inquired whether we'd ever see a new Makita table saw. His response was something to the effect of "Makita got tired of getting sued for table saw accidents so we've abandoned the NA table saw market, best to leave that mess to the other manufacturers...".

Granted, this was an off the cuff comment from a company rep and not an official press release, but I thought it was interesting that Makita was voluntarily avoiding the North American market for that particular class of tool.
 
Hipplewm said:
Tom Gensmer said:
There have been a few comments in this thread indicating that SawStop somehow has a monopoly or patent on the finger-sensing technology. By my count, there are at least five manufacturers (SawStop, Bosch, Felder, SCM, Altendorf, and I'm sure others) with some variation of flesh- or finger- sensing technology on their table saws, each a little different.

I'd argue that the Felder, SCM and Altendorf systems are safer than the SawStop system since they trigger/engage prior to finger contact, but that's splitting hairs.....

As a professional woodworker, I can't fathom going back to a "traditional" table saw, it'll be interesting to see if the industry ever migrates away from them (the way we did with radial arm saws).... I just can't come up with a traditional table saw task that can't be performed more efficiently and/or more safely on a different machine (slider, bandsaw, jointer, router table, shaper, etc....).
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter, once this system becomes "Mandatory" then Sawstop will have to license at "Reasonable" rates, so they won't be able charge whatever they want etc.  Once the patent runs out, they will stop getting royalties

I would imagine the sawstop method will be adopted by most as it would be semi easy to retofit on most saws as they have a system for each size of saw already made.
Click to expand...

It is also more cost effective. Some of the more industrial table saw manufacturers (might have been either Felder or Altendorf I forget) said their system costs in the thousands to add. That would be cost prohibitive to most especially those in the market for contractor style saws.
 
731 Woodworks on YouTube did a video on this and had a patent attorney on to discuss some of it. Interesting stuff.
 
Just bought a SawStop JSS since three weeks ago cut two of my fingers on a Dewalt tablesaw.  Cutting a small piece of TimberTech PVC decking that probably melted a bit and gripped the blade causing my fingers to contact blade.  The top of two of my fingers were cut, middle finger through the nail and into the bone. Stitched up at ER. Healing nicely, just a little stiffness which I’m working on.  Should be ok long term.  For doing something stupid, I got really lucky.  A never used JSS came up on Facebook marketplace…I took it as a sign.  Be careful.
 
Tom Gensmer said:
For what it's worth, I don't think the regulations would render table saws obsolete, but the lawsuits could.

This past Summer I spoke with my local Makita representative and inquired whether we'd ever see a new Makita table saw. His response was something to the effect of "Makita got tired of getting sued for table saw accidents so we've abandoned the NA table saw market, best to leave that mess to the other manufacturers...".

Granted, this was an off the cuff comment from a company rep and not an official press release, but I thought it was interesting that Makita was voluntarily avoiding the North American market for that particular class of tool.
Click to expand...

About 45 years ago, my brother-in-law wanted to produce a recumbent bicycle.  He is an engineer (strength of materials) and he collaborated with two other engineers to design the bike.

This is a typical recumbent bike:

clt-recumbent-lp-img-5-slimC.jpg


But they could not get liability insurance for it. It was no more dangerous than a regular bike, perhaps less so.  But a conventional bike enjoys the label of “acknowledged risk”.  In other words, people know it is dangerous and they assume much of the liability themselves.

It is the same concept that applies to going to a baseball game and getting a foul ball that hits you on the head.  It is an acknowledged risk, so you cannot sue the baseball club for the injury.

So a conventional saw has that same “acknowledged risk”.  Anything that is too radically diverse from a standard saw will not enjoy that designation.  Buying insurance for that new design may well be the issue that prevents bringing it to market.
 
As a guy who's been on the tools as a pro for 38 years now - the whole risk and litigation thing frankly enrages me. It's based on two simple principles;

1 You're now able to hold someone else responsible for your own incompetence or abject stupidity. The world seems to have forgotten the concept of 'You're 100% responsible for your own actions. You take the risk - if it blows up in your face, then you also take the hit. What happened is your fault - and yours alone'.

2 And why? Because guys in suits say - "Hey !! We can legislate despite that brain-dead thing you did !! We'll find someone or something else to blame !! And we guarantee that you'll get handsomely paid for being a monumental cretin !! (hidden tiny-print clause on page 67 of the client contract) .... But not as well as we'll get paid."

It's all so, so sad. We live in a time where a guy can buy a blindfold, and choose to wear it whilst driving through a city at 100mph. When he crashes his car into a wall - he can then successully win a 10-million dollar lawsuit against the blindfold manufacturer on the grounds that the blindfold didn't come with a specific clause on the label. WARNING !! THIS PRODUCT CAUSES IMPAIRMENT OF VISION. DO NOT DRIVE WHILST WEARING IT. The farcical California arse-covering 'everything causes cancer' labels are the perfect illustration of the fact that the lawyers have won. We're all screwed.

But anyway - my career started in the 1980's. Here's how we used to do stuff. No harnesses, no hi-vis jackets, no helmets, no safety boots - just a cigarette, a flat cap ............ and COMMON SENSE. Almost no-one died - and those who did only had themselves to blame. Put your arm into the mouth of an alligator - and don't be surprised at what happens next. Apologies to my US friends if Fred's strong Lancastrian dialect (north of Cheshire but south of Cumbria) is hard for you to follow - but the pictures will tell you everything you need to know. Fred Dibnah = Brit legend and national hero, 200 feet up in the sky doing his regular day's work, sitting on a small plank tied to one rung of his ladder by a strand of rope. Enjoy;
 
I thought that the response letter (public record) from TTS North America was interesting and candid.  In the video above are links to the actual documents.  I have clipped the letter with my redactions of contact information:  [attachimg=1]

Peter
 

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I would be willing to bet that the "Law of unintended consequences" kicks in and drives up the price of used saws that don't have that added expense.
This can only ever apply to new sales, so the older ones will be coveted in the hobby market.
Insurance and likely other regulations can probably force it onto commercial shops, the ones removed from there will get sold off.
Some will end up as unusable though because of power requirements. 3 Phase is not available in most residential areas.
So the dangerous saws end up with the amateur users and the more experienced pros have the new ones?

We were required to replace 2 of the SawStop saws several years ago. We had the commercial version and had to swap them for the Industrial. The only difference?... a Lock-out/ Tag-out switch.
These were not hard-wired, they were unplugable, but they still required replacement.
 
ChuckS said:
The Bosch Reaxx in Canada has not been affected by the lawsuit and court decision which applies only to the US market. It has always been available north of the border all this time, but it has been sold out in most local retailers because Bosch has stopped the production.
Click to expand...

The SS patents were only applicable in the US. Felder and other manufacturers have developed other methods with no regard for the US patents. 
 
Sawstop patents under PCT like most global entries.  That puts a foothold and while national patents rule, it'd be a bold move for an entity to disregard prior art searches in the PCT.  Some of sawstops have since been filed at the regional level (eg Euro, Japan, Canada, etc)
 
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