Could I get away with a small Senco compressor and an HVLP system?

[upscale]

Primary uses:
1. Finish nailing (no need for construction type of nailing)
2. Spaying lacquer/paint (most likely no wall painting i.e. Latex, but can't guarantee this of course, my crystal ball is a bit foggy...  [tongue])

Optional nice to have extras:
3. Car wheel bolt opening and closing when changing tires
4. Air pump for footballs, lilo's, tires, etc.
5. Cleaning dust off work pieces/equipment in the shop with compressed air

I bought a Senco PC1010 (max 125 psi) a few months back and that was after using several other models. My criteria for compressor use in my apartment, was it being quiet, light and able to drive brads. The PC1010 is *very* quiet, light at 20 lbs and will drive my brad guns with a little bit of recycling. It would fill your list above except for the lug nuts and gets a relatively poor review for painting. It *almost* fits in a systainer, but part of it is too wide. But, I think it could be adapted for one if you set your mind to it.

Honestly, I think your wife would put it in the "cute" category so you shouldn't have any trouble using it in your house, shed or anywhere else. Now if you really want a manly compressor, the Senco won't meet that need.  

Next to the PC1010, I considered the Rolair JC10. It was also quiet, but louder than the Senco and heavier at 40 lbs. I think it would meet your spraying need, but I don't know about lug nuts.

If brad and pinner nail guns, pushing dust around, filling balls and tires of any type are your main consideration, then the Senco will work fine in my opinion. Painting and lug nuts, not so much.

 

[Tinker]

>>>Next to the PC1010, I considered the Rolair JC10. It was also quiet, but louder than the Senco and heavier at 40 lbs. I think it would meet your spraying need, but I don't know about lug nuts.

 

[Tim Sproul]

Would spraying a deck with deck oil or Pinotex to a fence make any sense with an HVLP-sprayer or are these tasks that are still easier to do with a traditional paint brush and an extension rod to it?

Use a roller for a deck/fencing.  Or go airless.  But you'll still want to back roll/brush to get the most durable finish.

 

[upscale]

I seem to recall from the flyer (not here in front of me at the moment to check) the JC 10 weighs around thirty pounds.  I have some rather serious back problems and have to be very careful lifting.  I have no problem moving that one around. 

You maybe right about the JC10's weight, it's been several months since I compared models. As far as the Senco goes, I'm using it exclusively in my apartment, so noise is my biggest concern. As to weight, I use a wheelchair and although I have plenty of arm strength to lift things, I don't have the counter balance of my standing body to assist those lifts. So, weight was another important factor to me.

 

[Tinker]

Upscale, Sorry about the wheelchair problems. I have some serious back problems that periodically regiment me to use of crutches, so weight is a serious consideration for me.  both the Senco and the JC 10 are well within my weight limitations.  Somedays, I will only lift the JC 10 from straight on using both hands and bending my knees so I don't bend from lower back.  I am also very careful to carry, if with one hand, to brace my hip with my other hand to take strain off of my back.  If you have strength in your arms, i am sure the JC 10 would be fine for you weight wise. (I say this not so much for you, as you already are satisfied with your Senco; but more for info to others who might be contemplating purchase and wondering how it will work with handicaps such as yours...  and of course my own which is only on sporadic situation)

Did you show some pics on FOG showing how you set up your shop for work from your wheel chair?  Maybe it was somebody else, or on a different site.  I thought it was a great thing to do as it showed others not to give up everything of interest because of a serious handicap.  For some, the thought of a wheelchaired future can be quite devastating.  It could be for me except i have often looked at how others cope.  To see how guys like you cope with such a problem takes the scare out of the future for guys like me.  It says "No Problem."
Tinker

 

[upscale]

Did you show some pics on FOG showing how you set up your shop for work from your wheel chair?  Maybe it was somebody else, or on a different site.  I thought it was a great thing to do as it showed others not to give up everything of interest because of a serious handicap.  For some, the thought of a wheelchaired future can be quite devastating.  It could be for me except i have often looked at how others cope.  To see how guys like you cope with such a problem takes the scare out of the future for guys like me.  It says "No Problem."

No, I didn't post any pics. My "workshop" is currently limited to a workbench covered with a bunch of tools in my living room. I've been searching for a number of years for a workshop within travelling distance that I can share with someone or rent. Naturally, the problem is finding one that is wheelchair accessable in the Toronto area and within a set travelling time. If someone new to using a wheelchair already has a home with a shop, then woodworking from a wheelchair is absolutely attainable. I can suggest many methods for wheelchair woodworking.

One recent disappointing fact in the woodworking wheelchair arena is the closing of General Canada division of their tools. They had an 'access' line of lowered machinering that was suitable for use from a wheelchair. As far as I know, they are or were the only company to have machinery so designed. They still list the tools on their website, but the access tablesaw I tried to buy very recently is no longer available.  http://www.general.ca/site_access/access_en.html

 

[sancho57]

I use a small senco (gal hotdog) and a 4 gal twin tank Emglo compressor.

They both do all I need it to do. I have ran a air grinder using the emglo with no real problems.

HOWEVER, I do have to be patient and wait for it to catch up. But since I do use use the grinder often, its no biggie to me.

I also use a LVLP conversion gun with it (Accuspray versa max). It designed to be used with a small compressor. I dont even have to wait for the compressor to catch up.

I spray water base finish with it and it does a good job. It can also be used with a pressure pot (1-5 gal).

I dont think they make that gun anymore as Accuspray was bought out by 3M and they cut the product line down dramatically.

Parts are even getting tough to get to.

I do believe there are other manufacturers that make a gun that can be used with a small compressor.

I have used a framing nailer with the small senco hotdog compressor. Granted not for production use. I get a few nails shot then it has to catch up.
But like with the grinder, Im in no hurry and I dont use it for that very often.

But with that being said. I would like to get a larger 20 gal compressor to replace the 4 gal emglo. I use the emglo mainly for shop work and not site work.

So a larger compressor would be more practiable. However  get by just fine with my 2 small compressors.

 

[RC]

Thanks fellows!

Your experiences (both ways) pretty much validate my expectations of a small compressor like to Senco 1010 or this Rolair JC10 (unfortunately not available here, sound really good).

Since I'm a hobbyist my need for nailing is like five brads a minute month or so to bind glueups together or do small nailing jobs around the house, so I'm not so worried about needing to wait for recycling or shooting a framing gun repeatedly over an extended period of time. For me small size and quiet operation are key. Now I just need to find a store that actually has electricity for their compressors on show to actually hear them... (most don't want the noise in the store so they don't have then plugged in  [unsure]). 

What has peaked my interest are these LVLP spray guns mentioned - are these very specialty gadgets, since every website seems to be only talking about HVLP guns with turbines for spraying? I'm not expecting to be able to paint a wall with something like that connected to a small compressor, but would something like the Accuspray LVLP gun connected to a small tank 1.5hp compressor be able to spray lacquer onto small parts of what ever furniture I might be building at the time?

The Wagners I find in local stores are of the Large Variety or Small Variety. Haven't seen their separate spray guns in the shops and these plastic sprayers seem to have their proprietary hose connectors so that you are stuck with the gun that came with the sprayer.

 

[Tim Sproul]

A Senco 1010 is not going to keep up with those spray guns.  The 1010 might work for a small airbrush set up, but not for spray guns you'd use for finishing furniture.

 

[tiralie]

A Senco 1010 is not going to keep up with those spray guns.  The 1010 might work for a small airbrush set up, but not for spray guns you'd use for finishing furniture.

Agreed. I think, as others have stated here that you will be happier in the long run with an turbine HVLP spray system.

What has peaked my interest are these LVLP spray guns mentioned - are these very specialty gadgets, since every website seems to be only talking about HVLP guns with turbines for spraying? I'm not expecting to be able to paint a wall with something like that connected to a small compressor, but would something like the Accuspray LVLP gun connected to a small tank 1.5hp compressor be able to spray lacquer onto small parts of what ever furniture I might be building at the time?

If you decide to go with a compressor driven gun, match the compressors CFM flow to your guns requirements. While Accuspray doesn't seem to sell a LVLP gun per se, but you can convert their HVLP turbine guns to air from a compressor.  Contact 3M Accuspray for the closest dealer. Because 3M ownes Accuspray all their guns have the option of the PPS systems which is handy if you are changing out color or coatings on the same project.
There are guns like the Asturo K1, or CA Technologies Jaguar 100H that need only 4-5 CFM and are designed to run using a DeWalt or similar 4.5 gallon compressors. These guns are designed to spray stain and unpigmented lacquers. I would probably add a pressure pot to this set up to even out the air flow, but I am a very impatient sprayer.
If you are going to use water bourne, make sure the gun has Stainless steel fluid fittings and passages.
Tim

 

[edanielvijay]

Eastwood also make some HVLP guns to work with 4 CFM.

 

[jakiiski]

Just a thought - do you have to use the spray via the compressor? What if you buy the small compressor for the pin nailers etc., then buy a separate HVLP spray like Fuji, Apollo, Earlex or similar?

 

[RC]

Just a thought - do you have to use the spray via the compressor? What if you buy the small compressor for the pin nailers etc., then buy a separate HVLP spray like Fuji, Apollo, Earlex or similar?

Well, that was my original idea and question which seems to have been validated to be a reasonable idea by looking at all the responses to this thread.

I guess my next question would be which HVLP system?

Fuji Q4 is available atleast thru Axminster for abt  £700 and the Apollo 1050 that I saw somewhere in a European webshop (Italy maybe) was ridicculously expensive >1.5k€.

 

[RC]

Well, one down one to go... Ordered the Fuji Q4 Gold set for the sprayer and I'm now looking around for the compressor / nailer set...

What I did bump into that got me seriously rethinking was the NuAir Stack Tank F1/Bostich PS20-U compressor. With its fold-away handle and very compact format I might be able to squeeze it in the shed just as well as a Senco 1010 compressor. Spec wise it is from a different planet to the mini Senco, but I'd like your opinion on what would one of these be good for? (Quick spec recap: 20 litre tank (5 Gal), 180lpm @ 6 bar (6,3CFM), max pressure 10 bar)

The sales guy I talked to today seemed reasonably sincere, but I still felt like he was a bit in sales mode when he claimed that in addition to running any size of a nailer from these, one could get away with ½" impact wrenches and even light spray painting (not that it matters any more since I got the Fuji). I looked up some impact wrench air consumption figures and they seemed to be in the 200 lpm range (BEX, Nuair, Osaka).

So which air amount should you think or convert to if say the compressor produces 300 lpm of suction and 180 lpm @ 6bar and an impact wrench says it works @ 6 bars and consumes 190 lpm of air - I presume I should compare the @ 6bar output of the compressor to the 190 lpm consumption since its operation pressure is the same 6 bar? How should one compare a tool that has an operating pressure of say 4 bar and consumes 300 lpm of air - should I multiply the 300 lpm figure with 0.66 to accommodate the 33% lower operating pressure of the tool or is there some fancy formula to compare apples to oranges? So would running a wrench on something with this small a tank just keep the compressor running all the time and eventually kill it? The 20 litre tank doesn't sound that large a buffer when you are talking about 200+ lpm output... That would be a 6 second burst before the tank would be empty and I guess the compressor would kick in at about 2-3s spot?

Otherwise out of all the small ½-1 hp compressors the Senco felt best thought out and the FP18MG felt a lot better and more of a 'fits like a glove' feeling in my hand than the competition including a Paslode 1850 18 ga and Bosch 18 ga nailers.

The main reason I'm looking for a compressor is to run brads into glue joints and attach some panelling/skirts in the house, etc. tinkering. Therefore I was originally looking at the Senco FP18MG + PC1010 kit as a cost effective way of doing that and pumping the car tires / kids footballs up.

I do not foresee in my immediate future needs for framing nailer's, but a few years down the line I'm planning on rebuilding the back yard shed an making it insulated, heated and maybe slightly larger so there I presume I could use a framing gun at a leisurely pace.

I don't see myself sharing any nailing workload with someone so the only benefit I could get from the twin outputs of the NuAir would be the possibility to keep two different guns attached at the same time - how often would one end up needing this in real life?

What I like about the larger compressor is that it has tires so moving it to the hobby room at the other end of the housing complex would be simple - ofc. the Senco doesn't weigh a thing so carrying it there isn't the end of the world either.

How long a hose can one run from a compressor without total pressure loss? The larger compressor will be a pain to get through doors since its 67cm wide and doors are typically 90cm max. so for inside jobs my thought would be to run a long hose from the compressor into the house where ever I happen to need a nailer. Is a 30m hose usable in real life?

I guess the bottom line in my thoughts is the question 'would I get a tangible benefit from putting an extra 250€ down up front and subsequently living with a larger and louder compressor' (NuAir is 369€ + nailer + hose separately @ 75dBA vs. the Senco kit is 329€ all inclusive @ 68dBA)

 

[tiralie]

So which air amount should you think or convert to if say the compressor produces 300 lpm of suction and 180 lpm @ 6bar and an impact wrench says it works @ 6 bars and consumes 190 lpm of air - I presume I should compare the @ 6bar output of the compressor to the 190 lpm consumption since its operation pressure is the same 6 bar? How should one compare a tool that has an operating pressure of say 4 bar and consumes 300 lpm of air - should I multiply the 300 lpm figure with 0.66 to accommodate the 33% lower operating pressure of the tool or is there some fancy formula to compare apples to oranges?

You could conceivably run a tool 300 lpm/7.06 cfm @ 4 bar/60cfm because you would only need about 1.85 hp motor but that is the maximum a single stage compressor (110 @ 15amps) can generate. To do any real work you would need more CFM and a bigger compressor.  Most posted compressor rates (HP) are under ideal circumstances the highest amperage etc. so I would only use the posted rates as a "guide".  Most tool posted tool CFM or l/m requirements are the minimum and are too low for real work.
Here's a good article on evaluating true horsepower and CFM Ratings of Air Compressors  

So would running a wrench on something with this small a tank just keep the compressor running all the time and eventually kill it? The 20 litre tank doesn't sound that large a buffer when you are talking about 200+ l/m output... That would be a 6 second burst before the tank would be empty and I guess the compressor would kick in at about 2-3s spot?

Yes. Unless they are rated for such, a 100% duty cycle will kill these compressors. It's a strategy (running a portable compressor at 100%) that is used by some, but I think it's wasteful.

I guess the bottom line in my thoughts is the question 'would I get a tangible benefit from putting an extra 250€ down up front and subsequently living with a larger and louder compressor' (NuAir is 369€ + nailer + hose separately @ 75dBA vs. the Senco kit is 329€ all inclusive @ 68dBA)

No. The Senco will work perfectly fine for your needs. You won't realistically be able to run any pneumatic tools tools off of either of your other choices because you won't be able to get more than 5 CFM or 141.60 lpm out of each @ 100 psi or 7 bar. You could conceivably get more CFM from the compressors, but you would still need to run either at or close to 100%. I am not sure either compressor is designed to run all the time. 30 meters of 1/4" or 6.5mm hose will work fine with your brad gun.

 

[RC]

Second down!  [big grin]

Got the Senco FP18KIT (i.e. PC1010 compressor + FP18mg finish nailer + hose + a nail selection + protective goggles) yesterday for 299€ at the local Bauhaus on sale.

Now after reading the not so fine manual I'm wondering is the nailguns airhose connector that came loose in the package supposed to thread all the way in? Its resistance becomes very heavy towards the last third of its screw thread? The manual doesn't really mention much about it except that its an optional component that normally doesn't come with the gun.

 

[tjbnwi]

It's most likely an NPT thread, it should not bottom. The 2/3's sounds about right for run in. You did use pipe sealant on the threads?

I have the Q4 with the XPc gun, love the system. Order extra check valves. You don't want to find out what happens if you have to spray without the check valve. PPS is a great add on.

Tom

 

[RC]

Thanks Tom, never heard of an NPT thread before - Wikipedia is my friend here and after some more googling it seems that the connector indeed is a 1/4" NPT and I presume 'Collation: Glue' means that sealant should be used, which I didn't on my first go...

 

[tjbnwi]

Thanks Tom, never heard of an NPT thread before - Wikipedia is my friend here and after some more googling it seems that the connector indeed is a 1/4" NPT and I presume 'Collation: Glue' means that sealant should be used, which I didn't on my first go...

Yes, you must seal it. If you think about a thread, it is nothing more than a continuos line. Without sealant to block/interrupt the continuity of the line it will leak.

If there is any plastic involved, (what it is being thread into) avoid oil based sealants. Go with teflon paste or tape. The white tape should be fine for air, there are other colors that define what the tape is used for. Yellow is natural gas or LPG.

Tom

 

[tiralie]

.
The white tape should be fine for air, there are other colors that define what the tape is used for.

I have some nice pink tape on mine.  [big grin]
Tim