CT 26 cord ground prong broke out

[squall_line]

Serious question:

Is the delta in price between AF/GF outlets and GF-only outlets reasonable as compared to the price delta of AFI breakers compared to normal breakers?  AFI breaker prices were historically one of the things preventing me from wanting to have any electrical work done at our place unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

The CT22 we had in the old shop had that adapter, but it suffered the action of an idiot who didn't know it even existed. Somehow, it had been removed and left in the van. When he went to plug it in (to a 15a outlet) obviously no worky. So, what does he do? Take a pair of pliers and twist it 90 degrees.  [eek]

I don't think it's as simple as replacing the receptacle though. It's still a 15a circuit, likely with inadequate wire, or you could just replace the breaker too. Beefing up everything but the wire is not good either.
This is why electrical codes exist.

The CT itself will pull up to as much as 10a, then the tool rides the same circuit. Some can theoretically draw even more. The larger OFs, the larger TSs, etc.
I have all 20a circuits in the shop, 4 in my area alone, but my cord reel has a 15a breaker limiting it, so I often run the tool on a separate circuit.

 

[jeh]

I would not even bother with AFCI outlets. It's just something else to fail and they cost more money.

As for AFCI outlets they are not required, or expected to be used, in garages and basements. The exception is if the garage or basement is getting its power from an outlet in the living space (bedrooms, living rooms, dining rooms, sunrooms, othering gathering places and in kitchen and laundry areas). As for GFCI they are required in garages and basements.

Even if "mandated" for basements and garages I would remove them. Overpaying for something you do not need and may incur nuisance tripping. 

I am building a new home and have told the electrician to use the cheapest outlets possible because I will be switching them to outlets that do not have the TR feature. Has to be the 2nd worst "improvement" added to outlets since their invention (back stab is the first).

 

[Cheese]

I would not even bother with AFCI outlets. It's just something else to fail and they cost more money.

As for AFCI outlets they are not required, or expected to be used, in garages and basements. The exception is if the garage or basement is getting its power from an outlet in the living space (bedrooms, living rooms, dining rooms, sunrooms, othering gathering places and in kitchen and laundry areas). As for GFCI they are required in garages and basements.

Even if "mandated" for basements and garages I would remove them. Overpaying for something you do not need and may incur nuisance tripping. 

I am building a new home and have told the electrician to use the cheapest outlets possible because I will be switching them to outlets that do not have the TR feature. Has to be the 2nd worst "improvement" added to outlets since their invention (back stab is the first).

Nuisance tripping is exactly the reason I put the GFCI's in the same location as the outlets as opposed to inside the service panel which is 30 feet away. Nuisance tripping doesn't happen that often but it is certainly very annoying.

Don't get me started on the TR "feature", unfortunately fewer receptacles are offered without this feature. That's the reason I look for and purchase the Leviton commercial grade outlets...no TR available.

I think the worst TR outlets are made by Legrand, I installed them in the kitchen because they have integral night lights which is nice for that 2 AM glass of water. However, my wife cannot even plug in the toaster and it usually takes me a couple attempts.  [sad]

 

[jonnyrocket]

I don't think it's as simple as replacing the receptacle though. It's still a 15a circuit, likely with inadequate wire, or you could just replace the breaker too. Beefing up everything but the wire is not good either.
This is why electrical codes exist.

CRG, I know that you weren’t intending to sound like upsizing the breaker was a way around this, because this is exactly the WORST thing that anyone can do.

Swapping the 15A outlets for 20A outlets doesn’t actually pose any fire risk. The 15A breaker will still protect the wire in the wall even if someone plugs in a device requiring a full 20A.  This is actually very similar to most kitchen Range installations where a 50A 240V receptacle is installed onto a circuit that has wire and circuit breaker that are 40A only.

But, installing a 20A circuit breaker onto a circuit that was run in wire sized for a 15A circuit, in fact DOES create the risk for a fire. Given that the wire in that circuit (14 AWG NM-C aka “Romex”) can overheat and melt off the insulation before a 20A circuit breaker would trip.

The overall lesson, is that the circuit Brekaer exists to protect the wire! And it must be sized to protect the smallest gauge wire in the circuit. For example, if a circuit was pulled with 12AWG wire from the panel to the first junction box, but for some reason, 14 AWG wire was then used to connect some lighting into that same circuit, then the circuit breaker must be no larger than a 15A circuit breaker so that the 14 AWG wire in the walls is always protected correctly.

And just incase it isn’t clear, mixing wire gauges in a circuit is a very bad thing to do. It commonly happens when someone seeks advice from the internet or a home store associate without understanding the full situation. Always use the same size wire for the entire circuit!!

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Oh Yeah, [member=66966]jonnyrocket[/member]  that was my point exactly. You cannot "upgrade" the entire circuit by swapping to a 20a breaker.
Assuming it was done correctly, in the first place. The wire for the 15a circuit is sized for just that. If the heavier gauge wire was already there, why wouldn't it have a 20a breaker and outlet?
If you upgrade the breaker and outlet, the weak point becomes the wire in the wall.....where it is hidden/inaccessible. Recipe for disaster.
The only plausible reason I can come up with is somebody being cheap about it. If the wire is sized for 15a, everything attached to it should be too. The expensive part is the wire, so there would be no reason to have it in there, then run lower devices at the end. It wouldn't hurt anything, but it makes no sense either.
I guess what we are talking about here is a dedicated circuit. That's the way mine are done. That way something else doesn't suffer a power loss, when you start up the miter saw, for example. A lot of them draw 13a.

 

[jeffinsgf]

Back in the Dark Ages, when I did a bit of building, we ran 12 gauge for everything. Seemed like too much trouble to run 14 for lighting circuits and 12 for outlets...which is what most other companies did. No one that I know would have used 14 gauge for outlets, though it's rated for 15 amps and seems to be the "standard" now.

 

[Cheese]

Back in the Dark Ages, when I did a bit of building, we ran 12 gauge for everything. Seemed like too much trouble to run 14 for lighting circuits and 12 for outlets...which is what most other companies did. No one that I know would have used 14 gauge for outlets, though it's rated for 15 amps and seems to be the "standard" now.

I asked that the new garage be wired bare-bones because I was going to install the electrical services I needed. The electrical contractor installed just 2 circuits in a 20 circuit panel, a 14 ga for lighting and a 12 ga for outlets.  [tongue]  Old habits die hard.  [smile]

 

[rvieceli]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] The price differential these days between 14/2 w/ground and 12/2 w/ground is usually around $0.15 to $0.18 per foot.

If you were running miles of Romex that would add up. For my projects my feeling has always been to just run the 12 gauge and not worry about. Personally I like 20 amp circuits  [big grin]

when friends have tried to save by keeping lighting on 14 they wind up with a bunch left usually negating the savings.

Ron

 

[Michael Kellough]

Here in NYC a branch circuit running from a 15 amp breaker must have 12 gauge wire with extra tough jackets and be in BX or conduit. No discount for lighting circuits except possibly allowing more fixtures.