CT22 + Dust Deputy vs. Lunchbox planer?

[Dave Ronyak]

Tinker,

Thanks for explaining fully the various setups you have tried.  Very helpful and useful to us!

TTB,

One micron should be quite good (the bag supplied with a Fein Turbo II vacuum is 5 micron rated and it does pretty good by itself), particularly if you can separate out most of the chips and dust before the fine dust hits the filter bag.  I have never tried a setup like Tinker's - a chip collector drum between the planer and the fan motor of a collector like you are contemplating, but it should work well, provided the chip collector drum is well sealed during operation.

Dave R.

 

[Tinker]

Tinker,

Thanks for explaining fully the various setups you have tried.  Very helpful and useful to us!

TTB,

One micron should be quite good (the bag supplied with a Fein Turbo II vacuum is 5 micron rated and it does pretty good by itself), particularly if you can separate out most of the chips and dust before the fine dust hits the filter bag.  I have never tried a setup like Tinker's - a chip collector drum between the planer and the fan motor of a collector like you are contemplating, but it should work well, provided the chip collector drum is well sealed during operation.

Dave R.

The lid I am using with the 5gal bucket is well sealed.  There is a lip on the lid with a foam ring inside of the lip.  There is no loss of suction .

For the larger lid that has the 4" fittings, there is air leaking all over the place.  As i have noted on another discussion, it seems almost impossible to find fittings from one compny that fit othe companies products.  The lid is supposed to fit any container from 19" to 22".  No way does the lid line up with my 20" container.  The 4" vac hose needs considerable discussion along with physical persuasion short of dynamite to get it inserted.  I have tried elbows to fit into the openings.  drainage type PVC does not come close whether I use female or male type fittings.  My DC elbows, bought at same place as the lid just flop in with space to spare.  The lid settles into place by accident somehow.  I have a block (4x5x14) of oak that I set on the flat part and that seems to settle the whole thing down enough to hold vacuum necessary.  The only tool I run with that is my DW 733 planer.  No tee's or wye's just straight lines to container and from container to vac. It seemed to work fine last winter with the longest run from the planer to the container and very short line from container to vac.  With my experimentation over the past several days, i think it seems to work better with the shortest line from planer to container and then the long overhead run from container to vac.  Last nite i emptied the vac bag so next time I gear up, I will be able to determine if I am actually sucking any of anything into the vac.  Observing the container, I seem to end up with a lot of fine dust ON TOP of the pile of chips.  This leads me to believe there is agitation within the container.  I will not be filling the container until sometime in December when I get back to serious WW'ing.  I will keep you postedand when I have time, i will try to figure out how to add pics. 
Tinker

 

[Madtown Rob]

The DW-735 has an actual fan which is driven off the motor. It really pushes the chips. They warn you about hooking it up to a shop vac. I'm guessing that a dedicated, yet portable dust collector is what's called for. I see that Steel City has one with a 1 micron filter bag (washable) for $319. Does this seem to be in the same range as the other solutions that you're talking about?

I tried this with my 735 ( adding a trashcan cyclone lid with a shop vac)  Please don't waste your time. The fan is so powerful that a roll of duct tape and 3 bungee cords couldn't seal the lid to the can. chips an dust went everywhere, the trash can was empty, and the shop vac was full in no time at all.

I know have a Gorilla from Oneida. The planer fan is powerful enough to push the chips into 15-ft of 4" line and into the cyclone without even turning the cyclone on! It doesn't take very long to fill a 50-gallon collection drum when thicknessing just 20-bft of lumber.

I am sure that they (cyclone lids) work well with the non-fan assisted chip removal.  Goodluck with your choice - Rob

My  $0.02 for free.

 

[Tinker]

I guess i now have one more reason for not "upgrading" to the 735.  My problem with first look was the weight.  For me, it sure ain't portable.  my 733 i am still able to pick off of bench and move anywhere needed.  Of course all of my ruptured discs and old muscle tears do complain somewhat, but still do-able.  Without the impeller, the 733 shows promise for working just fine with the system discussed so far.  no matter what is used for collection, I am sure it will fill up rather quickly.  I hate removing the bag on my PennState vac and so I will continue to try to find the best way to work using the collection container. 

The other system with the CT 33 and 5 gal bucket w/cyclone lid I am hoping will work ok with my HL 850. 
Tinker

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Tinker,

Thanks, especially, for sharing your experiences with DC piping components that don't fit one another.  I currently use the Systainer 4 that came with my workshop cleaning set to house my growing collection of various small fittings.  I have also found it necessary to have at least one length of various sized hoses available, including the OEM hose that came with my ancient Craftsman vacuum because that is the only one that fits properly into the 4" into 2 1/2" adapter that I need at times, e.g. for the bottom of the enclosure of my table-mounted router.  I don't have enough muscle or patience to couple some of the fittings that were supplied by Oneida.  I have used a drill equipped with a small sanding drum to enlarge/reduce/create at taper on some of my plastic fittings to get them to work.  I am thinking of trying a hair dryer or other hot air blower on to soften some other plastic fittings with the hope I could then slip them onto the DC nipple I am trying to fit.

One source of DC accessories I intend to call on again is Oneida.  Some of the metal accessory/adapter fittings they recommended and supplied with my cyclone unit are just slightly smaller or larger than their nominal 4", 5" or 6" size, which enables them to form a slip fit joint that can be secured with a traditional screw-type hose clamp.  Theirs is the only fitting I have thus far found that is a direct slip fit over the metal DC outlet from my General TS.  I need a couple of these slightly undersized metal cylindrical fittings to enable me to reverse the installed position of the 5"x5"x4" wye adapter I purchased from them so the air drawn in through the 4" branch doesn't have to do a 135 degree turn into the main flow direction.  As manufactured, one 5" end of that wye is a smooth cylinder, the other is crimped.  I could not get the wire-reinforced 5" hose supplied by Oneida onto the smooth end of that wye so I slipped it over the smaller end that has crimp-type convolutions.  I could instead buy a crimping tool, but I don't expect to ever have need of one beyond getting my simple DC system set up, and I would still need to buy some metal fittings to work with.

Sounds to me like the 733 planer (no blower) is a better choice for those that have a good vacuum or other DC system. 

Dave R.

 

[Tinker]

I am absolutely certain that all designers of vacuum equipment and fittings must take a full semester in sadism.
Tinker

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

How well do people think the cheapo ($20) cyclone lids that attach to a 5 gallon bucket would work collecting plaster, both dust and chunks? I do  a lot of renovation, and unfortunately part of the job description involves demo of plaster walls and tile floors. I have been using a 12 gal "5 hp" Ridgid vac for collecting the debris, but it's a pain because the pleated filter is constantly getting clogged, and it's a pain to empty. Having read about the various cyclone systems for collecting wood dust, I wonder how well they would work collecting plaster dust, as well as chunks of concrete? Ideally I'd love to buy the $20 lid for a 5 gallon bucket sold by Woodcraft, but I'm also curious if people have had a chance to use the Dust Deputy for this purpose, and if so what were their experiences? I'd ideally like to use the 5 gallon size because it's highly portable, and I can still carry it when it's full of concrete debris.....

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Tom,

I don't know - yet.  I have a Fein Turbo II, a CT 22 E and a Dust Deputy.  I am planning to try the DD between my RO 125 and one of those vacuum machines (probably the Fein) to carve out cracks in the ceiling of my son's room.  But I am not planning to begin this project soon.  I used the RO 125 hooked to that Fein vac fitted with their standard paper filter bags a couple of years ago to do similar prep work on the ceilings and walls of other rooms in my house, using 36 grit and 50 grit Rubin most of the time (Krystal had not been introduced yet) and had no problems with clogging or reduction in suction.  I dumped the bags only when they got heavy due to plaster and paint debris - probably about 1/3 to 1/2 filled by volume.  I'm expecting the DD to improve the collection, and obviously to reduce the need for filter bags.  I also have an old Craftsman vacuum machine with an open filter like you describe, and it clogs the filter pleats very quickly.  Its suction falls off well before much larger debris particles are collected in it 16 gallon cannister.  I cannot imagine that dust collection performance would be worse using a mini-cyclone.

Dave R.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Hi Dave! I'm curious to hear what your experience is! The specific job profile I'm looking at is old bathroom demolition, where you've demoed the plaster walls and ceiling, and you have several inches of plaster on the floor. At this point I'll typically try to scoop up as much of this waste as possible with a shovel or large dust pan, but inevitably I end up with the Ridgid shop-vac trying to suck chunks out of stud bays, with the filter of the vac clogging long before the reservoir fills with debris. I'd love to grab a 5 gallon bucket out of the truck with the DD or cyclone lid, put it in line with the vac, and be able to vacuum for longer periods of time without cleaning the filter every few minutes. Also, I imagine this system works great when routing! Anyways, I'm looking forward to hearing of your experiences!

 

[Bru]

Tom this is my set up. Ct22 with woodcraft $20 mini cyclone lid. Use it with my Domino, TS55, 150 dual sander, and router table. Works great getting a lot of the large chips, don't have to empty the bag as often. Very easy to move and empty. Sorry haven't tried it on my big machines, have 2, 2hp DC one set up on Table Saw, the other on Jointer, planner, bandsaw, drum sander, fed into a trash can cyclone. Hope this helps. I'd try it only about $50 to set up at woodcraft, 3 fittings and a section of clear hose.

 

[Tinker]

I have been using my  CT 33/5 gal bucket/WoodCraft cyclone lid (same setup shown above) now since my previous posts in this discussion.  I still find it stisfactory, altho i have discovered there to be a slight falloff of vacuum at the tool end.  I think this is more related to an increase in voluum created by use of the bucket, extra fittings involved (See Bru's setup which is exactly same as mine without the framework),and the added length of hose used between the vac and tool.

With the changes in air flow direction coupled with all of those other factors, there is a slight drop in vac.  with hand type inspection, i cannot locate any air leaks.  From my years as Vol Fireman, i know there is dropoff of water pressure between pump and nozzle.  The drop off is calculable by factoring size of hose, pressure at pump, type of fittings, number of fittings, size of hoze, length of hose, size of nozzle and type of nozzle. I assume that all of these factors can be found somewhere to calculate vacuum drop off from tool to vac.  just figure backwards.  i do not have the figures i learned as VF, nor do I have the formulae anywhere I can get ahold of them right away.

Without the cyclone, but with direct hookup to my router/ATF 55, there is a little more debris left on my MFT and floor than with the cyclone.  When sanding, i have not been using a mask for most work as i could not discern any noticable dust in the air.  For the past month, i have been battling one of those head & throat colds that just does not want to leave.  I am doing several small projects in my shop where, when i sand, the is not a complete marriage of sanding paper (RO 150, LS 130 and in smaller areas too small for the Deltex, i have used the Fein MT) to wood, I am noticing a whole lot more fine dust agrevating my condition.  If i make direct hook up (bypassing the cyclone) I do not seem to get quite so much dust to agrevate my condition.  Either way, there is no visible dust in the air, but I am prooving to myself that there is, indeed, more dust not being sucked up when using the cyclone.

My next step will be to install a 36m hose from cyclone to tool with a short section of 27mm at tool end of the larger hose to run my ATF 55, both routers and my sanders.  This may cut down on vac pressure loss while keeping air velocity equal at the tool.  I have tried using Fernco fittings at tool end with the 36mm hoe, but this is too clumsey to be of value.

Oh yes, even with all of that extra dust described above, my wife tells me I am still sweet & lovable :  :  :

I am still using my 30 gal bucket attached to cyclone lid with short 4" vac hose to my planer and about 16' of 4" hose from lid to larger PennState vac.  The lid does not fit properly, but there is still enough vacuum to handle 99% of the chips, none f which are reaching the vac.  This is, for my work, totally satisfactory as I will probably never find it necessary to remove and reset the bag on that PennState vac.  That is the biggest PITA in my shop.

Tinker

 

[greg mann]

Tom,

I have a mini-cyclone (ClearVue) that I use with my tablesaw, 15 inch planer, band saw, a stationary belt sander, and CMS. It sits on a 55 gallon plastic drum looking aboslutely ridiculous but it works. It is powered by the same Rigid shop vac with a Cleanstream filter, that will clog in a heartbeat, just the way you described when sucking up drywall dust. I have about 15 gals of debris in it without an appreciable amount of dust in the Rigid. I don't use it with my sanders and my Atf55 because thay are in a different room plus I have concluded that the CT22 with a boom is just too good at that job and there is not the great accumulation of dust that come off the other tools, most notably the planer, to fill the bagsd that fast. Since you want a system to collect fine dust after the fact, so to speak, I doubt you care about the absolute efficiency of suction that Wayne is referring to. You just want someting that works without fouling the filter, right? I think the cyclone will do that based on my exp. but I cannot speak for the dust lid system. It certainly would help some.

One more thing that might help with the Rigid. The way it is designed, the inlet will pretty much shoot the dust directly at the filter. Stupid. I took a five gallon pail and cut the rim down, as well as I can recall, about 3 inches and cut a hole in the bottom about 4 inches in diameter. I removed the filter and placed the bucket over the outlet and screwed the filter back on so the bucket hangs upside down and shields the filter from incoming debris. I don't know the extent to which this helps but dust collection seems to be about having solutions in stages with every stage doing its part.

Maybe I need an elbow inside the Rigid to create a second cyclonic effect. Hmmm..... :

 

[John Stevens]

I have a mini-cyclone (ClearVue) that I use with my tablesaw, 15 inch planer, band saw, a stationary belt sander, and CMS. It sits on a 55 gallon plastic drum looking aboslutely ridiculous but it works. It is powered by the same Rigid shop vac...

Hi, Greg.  I'm intrigued--you get enough airflow with the Ridgid shop vac when connected to your planer?  Right now I own the JDS version of the DC with the big filter up top and the bag below, but I'd ditch it in a heartbeat for something that would save a little floor space.

Regards,

John

 

[Tinker]

I have been describing my success/problems with the cyclone top (WoodCraft with the two fittings on top and 5gal bucket that becomes the cyclone>>>see Bru's setup).  I feel there is some loss of vacuum by time suction gets to the tool end of hose.  I have just looked over the site for Dust Deputy and they claim there to be an improvement in collection vacuum.  That, I find difficult to believe.  I would believe if they said the drop in vac is not readily noticeable, but an improvement  ???

I know some of us do have the DD.  Does anybody notice any drop off in vac as i have described in my previous post?  Some FOG'ers have guages to check and have indicated how much vac at vraious locations and at the vac and tool ends of their system.  I do not have any such guages, nor do i have any in my foreseeable future.  i just use my eyes and also check the vac with my hands.  There is a noticable drop between the direct line to my CT and going thru my "cyclone" 

I have been planing to get a second cyclone so I can have one at both of my CT's.  Since I ave my CT 33 in a more or less permanent location, I have been thinking of going for the DD for that location and hooking up the present "bucket cyclone" to my CT 22 which is basically my portable vac.  If nobody else has the information, i will try to report back once i am set up.

Tinker

 

[greg mann]

I have a mini-cyclone (ClearVue) that I use with my tablesaw, 15 inch planer, band saw, a stationary belt sander, and CMS. It sits on a 55 gallon plastic drum looking aboslutely ridiculous but it works. It is powered by the same Rigid shop vac...

Hi, Greg.  I'm intrigued--you get enough airflow with the Ridgid shop vac when connected to your planer?  Right now I own the JDS version of the DC with the big filter up top and the bag below, but I'd ditch it in a heartbeat for something that would save a little floor space.

Regards,

John

I would not say that I have enough compared to a real DC cyclone system, for sure. I take relatively light cuts, usually 1/16 or less, and I still need to blow the platen off every few boards (with my lungs), but I can keep the board clean enough to avoid imprinting chips under the rollers and keep the mess under control, especially airborne dust. A planer can make a lot of chips in a hurry so I am pleased that it works well enough to get me by until I spring for the real deal. Without the cyclone the Rigid would be rendered useless in about 1 minute or two as the filter will blind off just too fast. I keep checking te Rigid to see if dust is getting through and it's not. I do also have a silencer on the Rigid outlet that may cut my volume a little but my hearing is already compromised so I try to protect it as much as possible. Like Tinker, I am skeptical that the cyclone will increase volume but it sure makes what you have more efficient.

 

[John Stevens]

Greg, thanks for the info.  Tinker, thanks also.  Hope to hear that your pressure drop improves a little.  Please report back if you change your setup.

Regards,

John

 

[rodwolfy]

I have been planing to get a second cyclone so I can have one at both of my CT's.  Since I ave my CT 33 in a more or less permanent location, I have been thinking of going for the DD for that location and hooking up the present "bucket cyclone" to my CT 22 which is basically my portable vac.  If nobody else has the information, i will try to report back once i am set up.

Tinker

Tinker,

You should get a second cyclone, but get a Clearview mini cyclone and see if you can see a difference between the DD and the Clearview... I think that it's interesting to watch the dust swirl around down the cyclone. I have the Clearview and my superfine dust goes down the cyclone for the most part. I read that the Clearview has a better inlet port as it starts off straight; something to do with the way the cyclone works.

As far as the black garbage lid, I can't imagine that it would work nearly as well on fine dust, as it doesn't force the air into a downward spiraling vein before separation. I know that I have a lid separator for my 4" ducting off my table saw, planer, jointer, etc and in my experience it does not separate out the fine sawdust (which continues on to my dust collector, which has a pleated top filter and a 2 micron bottom felt bag). But my Clearview mini cyclone does. I don't get sawdust in my CT22 when I have the Clearview hooked up between it and by TS55.

If you do go this route, give us all a 'side-by-side' review!

Rod

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Hi Dave! I'm curious to hear what your experience is! The specific job profile I'm looking at is old bathroom demolition, where you've demoed the plaster walls and ceiling, and you have several inches of plaster on the floor. At this point I'll typically try to scoop up as much of this waste as possible with a shovel or large dust pan, but inevitably I end up with the Ridgid shop-vac trying to suck chunks out of stud bays, with the filter of the vac clogging long before the reservoir fills with debris. I'd love to grab a 5 gallon bucket out of the truck with the DD or cyclone lid, put it in line with the vac, and be able to vacuum for longer periods of time without cleaning the filter every few minutes. Also, I imagine this system works great when routing! Anyways, I'm looking forward to hearing of your experiences!

Tom,

I don't plan on trying to suck up chunks bigger than an inch of so.  I have not needed to demo completely any old walls.  My biggest waste from preparation of my old plastered walls is comparatively small.  Most of my walls had multiple layers of paint, and much of that had to come off because the bottommost layer was not well adhered.  I lot of scraping produced a lot of large paint chips.  I shoveled that up much as you described, then vacuumed the rest.  This was before the cyclone - I used my Fein Turbo II with a disposable paper filter bag as recommended by Fein for plaster and cement dust.  The mini-cyclone doesn't work so well if chunks of wood are sucked up, they swirl around the Dust Deputy making tinging or clanging noises until I shut off the vacuum.  Then they fall into the collector can and I restart the vacuum and continue.

I have not noticed any fall off in the vacuum with my Dust Deputy.

Dave R.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Hi Dave, thanks for the feedback! I was sure missing some sort of cyclone at work today!! I spent most of the day breaking up the basement concrete floor for the plumbers. Of course, the concrete was embedded with re-bar and wire mesh, so that was a treat to begin with! Once I was done with the breaker hammer most of the chunks were too small to pick our of my trenches with fingers, and since they were still somewhat embedded in mesh I couldn't shovel them out, so I was left trying to vacuum the chunks out. Needless to say, I made innumerable trips to the dumpster with a clogged Ridgid filter..... bleh!!! I'm thinking that maybe I'll try the $20 lid from Woodcraft for starters, and I'll go from there. I appreciate the info that everybody has contributed, I'm very much enjoying my experience here at the FOG!!!

Best regards to all,

Tom