CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)

[Random Orbital Bob]

Evening all, just taken delivery of a new CTL 26.

I love the general rake of features, its clearly well though through etc etc but......the suction is less than I was expecting given the hyperbole that tends to surround the festool brand generally.  I realise this is a little anecdotal but I have an ancient karcher and also a good old henry hoover, both which seem to "suck" when placing ones hand over the hose end, rather more than the new festool.  Its nothing silly, like its not turned on to full or anything.  I have the 27mm hose and I've used the lifetime bag to save on paper bag costs.  But its frankly, well.....disappointing!  Something of a genuinely new experience for me when trying a Festool for the first time. 
Am I missing something?

Many thanks
Bob

 

[Birdhunter]

My Festool vacs have a “suck dial” that can adjust vacuum pressure. On high, there is mucho suck. On low, very little.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Yes, I did say that said dial was on full power so regrettably that's not it

 

[Birdhunter]

I’m sure your dealer will replace the vac.

 

[Cypren]

Are your other vacs sealed systems filtered to the same degree that the Festool one is?

I definitely don’t get the same kind of suction/airflow on my CT26 that I do on my Ridgid shop vac, but a large part of that is because, like nearly all shop vacs, it doesn’t have a micro-particle filter attached. The CT’s motor has to work a lot harder to force the same volume of air through a filter that’s much more restrictive so it can catch smaller dust particles that the Ridgid simply expels right back into the air.

Festool does make regular shop vac filters you can install if you don’t need the high filtration of the ones that come with the machine, but at that point you’re taking a very expensive dust extractor and essentially turning it into a regular shop vac, not getting the improved safety that makes it cost so much. (Also, depending on your country, doing this may make it illegal to operate in professional settings since it no longer meets safety standards.)

 

[peter halle]

have you tried it with the paper bag that came with it instead of the long life to see if it improves?

Peter

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Well firstly, thanks for responding folks, it is appreciated.

Oddly, yes I did just go out and do two tests:  One was hand over the suction hole with no hose attached and then secondly, with the paper bag rather than the lifetime bag.  The hand over the suction hole was very powerful, definitely more so than both my other cheapie shop vacs.  That suggests the hose is perhaps slightly less than perfect.  Its not blocked though as I've tested that.  I will say that the switch to the paper bag has also very slightly improved it but its almost imperceptible.  The life time bag is a pretty thick affair and I guess all that additional "wooly bear" stuff makes it have to work a little harder.  Hey ho.

Given I've got the 27mm hose, does anyone know what the difference might be, in terms of suction performance, by upgrading to the 36mm hose?  That might be the simple answer?

 

[Chainring]

So, what have you used the CTL 26 for and is it not delivering satisfactory results?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Fine with a TS55 and a domino.  It was more the general clearing up of extraneous dust that it seemed a little underpowered

 

[FestitaMakool]

Any of the Festool vac’s breathe much better with the 36mm un-tapered hose, thus cleaning up perform much better with this hose. So is my experience with both CT Midi and CT 26. I have not tried the 36 on the CT SYS - but I guess there will be huge improvement on that as well.

The tapered 32-27 hose is really a tool oriented hose.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

That makes sense and there's no question it performed well on several 2.4 metre cuts of 3/4" marine ply.  The only visible debris left after the cuts was chips rather than dust.  My nose had no crud in after blowing and that's a real tell as to whether your lungs are protected.

 

[Lincoln]

I have a CT26, M class, and the suction is nowhere near my 42 litre Nilfisk M class.(which has a 32mm hose as standard). Doesn't matter when using with a tool, but definitely notice when doing general clean up.
I bought a 36mm AS hose for it and use it for most tasks, apart from sanding. Makes a big difference.
The only thing I don't like about the Festool vacs is the short run-on time. About half the time of the Nilfisk, Starmix etc vacs.

 

[Cypren]

Given I've got the 27mm hose, does anyone know what the difference might be, in terms of suction performance, by upgrading to the 36mm hose?  That might be the simple answer?

Because I am a hopeless nerd dedicated public servant, I went out to put my CT26 to the test to see what various combinations of connections do to the airflow, using an anemometer. (All of these measurements were taken using the HEPA filter and a mostly-empty standard fleece bag.)

The results, or "exactly how much your vacuum sucks":

[attachimg=1]

Connection	Efficiency
Vacuum port (direct)	100.00%
50mm (1m) hose	89.53%
36mm (3.5m) hose	82.26%
50mm (1m) to 36mm (3.5m) hose	77.14%
50mm (1m) to CT-VA to 36mm (3.5m) hose	64.10%
27mm (3.5m) hose	62.32%
27mm (0.5m) right-angle to CT-VA (direct input port)	62.31%
50mm (1m) to CT-VA to 27mm (3.5m) hose	61.75%
27mm (0.5m) right-angle to CT-VA to 36mm (3.5m) hose	60.40%
27mm (0.5m) right-angle to CT-VA to 27mm (3.5m) hose	60.04%
27mm (0.5m) right-angle to CT-VA to 50mm (1m) to 36mm (3.5m) hose	55.98%

Key takeaways here:

• Using the 27mm hose has a huge impact on your airflow
• ...but it doesn't really matter whether it's a straight hose or right-angle
• The CT-VA has about the same impact on your airflow as using a 27mm hose does, regardless of what you use to connect it to the vacuum
• By the time you use the most likely configuration for a fully tricked-out CT (vacuum to CT-VA to 50mm boom arm extension to 36mm hose), you've lost almost half the airflow of your vacuum

 

[AlexThePalex]

I am very not impressed by the suction of any Festool vac. They work fine as long they're connected to a tool, but they sincerely lack the oomph for general clean up.

 

[notenoughcash]

[member=5277]Alex[/member]
my midi has got more suck behind it than any of the other hovers/extractors i have ever used, and i use it for general clean up all the time.

i dont find them lacking in oomph.

 

[mino]

I think many are missing the point by testing with empty bags.

The "oomph" of the CT series to me is that the suck THE SAME regardless the bag being full or empty (hence the SelfClean bags branding).

They also FILTER the same. The standard self-clean bags are very clean ou the outside when you are tossing them out. Clearly they do proper filtering job across their lifetime. There are even folks which open them and reuse them a couple times like a long-life bag (!).

We have a couple cheaper Nilfisk-made vacs from various brands with the "drum" filters. These are still certified to L-class yet they all have the same behavior:
Vac suction drops well before the bag is filled (i.e. no self-clean) and when replacing the bag one can see the internals of the vac are way dirtier than on the Festool. The bags simply do not filter as well while getting blocked by dust easier to and the vac has to rely much more on the micro-filter. These are likely connected issues as a non-self-cleaning bag will naturally be loaded much more during use.

All this combined means the cheaper vacs have HIGHER running costs than my CTM 36 while providing less "worst case" suction. And that is before I account for the CT-VA used. They require much more frequent bag replacement, about two 5-bag packs of the "15-liter" Makita bags are needed take the dust one CT 36 bag can take. And the vacs also need much more frequent cleaning of the microfilter - i.e. labor costs.

We still use them as for tool-dedicated use they are fine. But the CT 36 is in a different class altogether.

Ref. Nilfisk, they also make higher end vacs comparable to CT26/36 series, but those go for comparable prices too ...

Ref. "Generic" shop vacs, we have gotten rid of all bar one which is used outside for car cleaning etc. What purpose is a vac which just takes the worst micro-dust and only spreads it around the air.

 

[AlexThePalex]

[member=5277]Alex[/member]
my midi has got more suck behind it than any of the other hovers/extractors i have ever used, and i use it for general clean up all the time.

i dont find them lacking in oomph.

Well, you're wrong.  [tongue]

Ok, everybody got his own experiences, great if it works for you. I got experience with 5 Festool vacs now, 22, 26, Mini, Midi and CT-Sys, and I find them all lacking. I have a used Nilfisk home vac I bought for 10 euros and it has a lot more power than any Festool vac I have ever tried. And same for any other home vac I owned or used.

 

[AlexThePalex]

The "oomph" of the CT series to me is that the suck THE SAME regardless the bag being full or empty (hence the SelfClean bags branding).

That was ok for me with the 22 and 26, but with the smaller vacs suction drops dramatically when they get to the half way point.

 

[mino]

That was ok for me with the 22 and 26, but with the smaller vacs suction drops dramatically when they get to the half way point.

The Self-Clean apparently relies on the small pressure differential from the huge filter area and smaller ones have the filter area in contact with the bag about half as big.

Do you observe that suction loss as permanent, i.e. the filter truly clogs, or does an occasional manual-clean tap help?

Thinking of adding a Mini ...

 

[Cypren]

I have a used Nilfisk home vac I bought for 10 euros and it has a lot more power than any Festool vac I have ever tried. And same for any other home vac I owned or used.

That's to be expected: home vacuums aren't filtered like a proper dust extractor and so their motors don't have to work nearly as hard to get the same kind of airflow. Any home or shop vac using its standard filter should vastly exceed the airflow of a dust extractor with a comparable-size motor: if it doesn't, something is badly wrong with one of the two.

But comparing them is like comparing a sports car to a pickup truck: they're machines built for different purposes and intentionally make different engineering tradeoffs.