CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)

[Cypren]

Er.....does anyone want to buy a 27mm hose and a lifetime bag....hardly used

This will be personal preference, but I’d recommend you hang onto both of those for the moment. You’ll find the 27mm hose is quite a lot more convenient to use with tools that don’t need anywhere near the maximum suction the vacuum can provide (sanders, track saw, drilling, etc). There’s a reason that it’s the default hose: they’re not just including it to be cheap. For work of this kind, you’ll also find the long-life bag will save you a lot of money in the long run over using replaceable bags, particularly if you don’t have a cyclone attached to the machine. Long-life bag + direct 36mm hose attachment is still going to provide you better suction than disposable bag + cyclone + 36mm hose, if that’s what you’re interested in.

But remember, for the vast majority of power tools, the suction of this machine is way overkill. You have to turn it way down when sanding unless you want to leave swirl marks all over your work surface. The last and worst-performing configuration I listed in my airflow test chart is actually the one I use day in and day out! I’m giving up 45% of the vacuum’s actual airflow performance and don’t care because what’s left over is still plenty strong for the tools I’m using it with. The only times that I switch things around for better performance are when I’m using heavyweight tools that throw off an enormous amount of material: the HL 850 planer, the OF 2200 router, and the Kapex. In those cases, I usually bypass the cyclone and go direct to the vacuum because the extra airflow really matters. For the router and planer, I’m using the 50mm extension hose that comes with the boom arm connected to the 36mm hose on the boom itself. For the Kapex, I keep a 36mm hose permanently attached at my miter saw station so I can just wheel the CT over and plug it in when I’m using it, rather than fussing with trying to position the boom. (Eventually, I’ll probably replace this with a direct hookup to the shop dust collector, but I haven’t built a full shop ducting system yet and am still wheeling machines around with hoses at the moment.)

And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

The way I would summarize it is “it’s a lovely saw most people shouldn’t buy”. What it will give you over your DeWalt is cleaner cut quality (because of the thinner blade), better factory calibration, better dust collection, the industry’s best hold-down clamp, and the ability to butt it right up against a wall if space is a constraint because it uses a rail-forward design which only one other saw on the market (Bosch) uses. (I don’t have the mobile stand and wings for it, but what I’ve generally read is that they’re “okay”; the Fastcap wings are supposedly better than the OEM ones.)

If budget is a concern, though, these features probably aren’t worth paying 3x the price of a new DeWalt. I love my Kapex, but I also recognize it was a pure luxury purchase and for practical purposes was roughly equivalent to buying gold-plated tools for bragging rights. But I’m not a professional, and those who are may have a different perspective on it to share.

 

[FestitaMakool]

I was in fact quite surprised by the small diameter tubing in the CT-VA ..

This is necessary. To work well a cyclone must achieve a certain air speed. With sanders the air volume is generally pretty low, so CT-VA must use uses tight air tubing to work even at the low air flows required.

This still provides mostly the equivalent of a 32/27 hose resistance so is acceptable for a TS55 and yet is usable with sanders. Any cyclone optimized for a higher air flow will have a lower efficiency at the typical sander air flow values to the point of making it pointless.

Mino, I think you’re right. After a closer look I see that the inlet is tapered from 50mm and down quite steep before the air enters the cyclone itself. This will create heat build up into the air while the air compresses and speed probably increases before entering the cyclone chamber, where it expands again. The outlet tube is also quite narrow, and the connected hose to vac is then wider to let the air expand again.

 

[ChuckM]

Easy: Get a 5m 36mm hose, cut 1-1,5m off of the hose (buy a set of tool end and vac end too) and make this one for the KS 120  [big grin] Use the other better half for shop clean up and air hungry tools. Oh, and maybe buy another hold down clamp, for the other side. Need no more. [wink]

Another hold-down clamp PLUS

an extra rubber dust shroud so you can make a sawstache shroud for those occasions when you need that extra dust extraction -- such as cutting MDF, or worse, dadoing MDF stock.

 

[tsmi243]

One assumes that once the Porsche has done its job,

You don't need to assume.  It's not impossible that there's a problem with yours.  At least in the US, any Festool dealer will have demo units to try out, and see if they feel the same to your hand as the one you bought. 

I've gone through a LOT of different vacuums, and while the overall CFM isn't amazing on the small hose, the actual static pressure really, truly is.  I can't imagine someone stopping it with their hand and feeling underwhelmed. 

 

[Christophl]

I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.

 

[squall_line]

I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.

It feels like HEPA has been a long time coming on other brands in the USA.  I know that when I originally got my CT-MINI back in 2016, it was one of the few HEPA options I could find that was also in stock locally.  Things certainly have changed since then.  I even wonder out loud if OSHA is nearly as strict on this in the USA as inspectors seem to be in the EU and UK; everything I know is anecdotal, at best.  I see crews here in town dry-scraping 100-year-old buildings without PPE or any sort of other containment, which I know is a violation.  I'm not sure that I could find a lead-certified contractor if I wanted one, honestly.

It appears that there's both a retrofit kit for the cheaper Ridgid vacs as well as factory HEPA models.  I wonder how the $50 bag/filter retrofit kit for the Ridgid comes out in terms of overall cost over time.  I haven't looked closely at what they're charging for bags on their HEPA-from-the-factory models.

 

[Cypren]

I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.

I’d be very curious to see what the airflow performance on a HEPA-certified Ridgid looks like relative to the baseline model. My guess is that it’s a lot like a CT, since they have similar-power motors. I would expect the Festool to have better static pressure, though, just because its mechanism is much more tightly-sealed end to end, and I would also expect it to have waaaaay less suction loss as it fills because of the improved filter placement I mentioned earlier in the thread.

I’m kind of curious how feasible it is to retrofit a non-HEPA vac to “effective” HEPA standards. I remember in one of the Festool Live episodes Sedge mentions the new HEPA filters for the CT 48 AC HEPA and the 36 that are robust enough to survive the autoclean pulse. He then says something along the lines of, “so can you put one of these in an older 36 AC?” and goes on to dance around the topic saying that while it’ll fit, HEPA certification is done on the entire vacuum end to end, not just the filter. Maybe I’m wrong, but I took him to essentially be implying “yes, you can drop one of these filters in your 36 AC and turn it into a HEPA vac; the lawyers just won’t let me say that because we didn’t have that specific model certified that way when you bought it.”

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Er.....does anyone want to buy a 27mm hose and a lifetime bag....hardly used

This will be personal preference, but I’d recommend you hang onto both of those for the moment. You’ll find the 27mm hose is quite a lot more convenient to use with tools that don’t need anywhere near the maximum suction the vacuum can provide (sanders, track saw, drilling, etc). There’s a reason that it’s the default hose: they’re not just including it to be cheap. For work of this kind, you’ll also find the long-life bag will save you a lot of money in the long run over using replaceable bags, particularly if you don’t have a cyclone attached to the machine. Long-life bag + direct 36mm hose attachment is still going to provide you better suction than disposable bag + cyclone + 36mm hose, if that’s what you’re interested in.

But remember, for the vast majority of power tools, the suction of this machine is way overkill. You have to turn it way down when sanding unless you want to leave swirl marks all over your work surface. The last and worst-performing configuration I listed in my airflow test chart is actually the one I use day in and day out! I’m giving up 45% of the vacuum’s actual airflow performance and don’t care because what’s left over is still plenty strong for the tools I’m using it with. The only times that I switch things around for better performance are when I’m using heavyweight tools that throw off an enormous amount of material: the HL 850 planer, the OF 2200 router, and the Kapex. In those cases, I usually bypass the cyclone and go direct to the vacuum because the extra airflow really matters. For the router and planer, I’m using the 50mm extension hose that comes with the boom arm connected to the 36mm hose on the boom itself. For the Kapex, I keep a 36mm hose permanently attached at my miter saw station so I can just wheel the CT over and plug it in when I’m using it, rather than fussing with trying to position the boom. (Eventually, I’ll probably replace this with a direct hookup to the shop dust collector, but I haven’t built a full shop ducting system yet and am still wheeling machines around with hoses at the moment.)

And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

The way I would summarize it is “it’s a lovely saw most people shouldn’t buy”. What it will give you over your DeWalt is cleaner cut quality (because of the thinner blade), better factory calibration, better dust collection, the industry’s best hold-down clamp, and the ability to butt it right up against a wall if space is a constraint because it uses a rail-forward design which only one other saw on the market (Bosch) uses. (I don’t have the mobile stand and wings for it, but what I’ve generally read is that they’re “okay”; the Fastcap wings are supposedly better than the OEM ones.)

If budget is a concern, though, these features probably aren’t worth paying 3x the price of a new DeWalt. I love my Kapex, but I also recognize it was a pure luxury purchase and for practical purposes was roughly equivalent to buying gold-plated tools for bragging rights. But I’m not a professional, and those who are may have a different perspective on it to share.

Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word

 

[mino]

... rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! ...

You sure it is a genuine Trabant and not some cheapo knock-off?

I am pretty sure the genuine ones do not rust!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

... rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! ...

You sure it is a genuine Trabant and not some cheapo knock-off?

I am pretty sure the genuine ones do not rust!

OMG.....my Dewalt is really a re-badged Oki-Duki....I knew it!!!

 

[Cypren]

Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word

This is more or less where I'm at as well, which is why my garage has so many stacks of systainers that it's getting difficult to walk through it from end to end. [big grin]

I was just trying to provide sane advice rather than Festool-cultist advice, which is always "collect 'em all!"

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word

This is more or less where I'm at as well, which is why my garage has so many stacks of systainers that it's getting difficult to walk through it from end to end. [big grin]

I was just trying to provide sane advice rather than Festool-cultist advice, which is always "collect 'em all!"

I get it Cypren.  Your advice is superb....and much appreciated

 

[rst]

I'm with RandonOrbitBob, 68 now been doing commercial locksmithing, glazing, aluminum storefront, automatic door operator (swing and sliding) and plastic fabrication for 50 years now.  I run Festool, Fein, Metabo and Milwaukee cordless, Wera and Knipex hand tools along with a pretty comprehensive collection of commercial grade wood working equipment.  Titan, Graco and Fugi spray equipment, my first job out of school was as a finisher.  I no longer compromise on tool quality just to get by (much to my wife's regret).  A colleague recently made the remark that I should sell everything and retire...where's the fun in that (also to my wife's regret, I did promise to finally finish making the quarter sawn oak molding before I die, and then some future idiot will paint it all)

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!

How uplifting it is to finally be free of that irrational need to justify tool spend.  For some weird reason, I've hit 58 and "boom" its like I've been unshackled of guilt.

Now I'm looking forward to elegant bevel cuts with a mirror finish knowing full well I secured the workpiece with a plastic clamp that cost £46.  A ludicrous amount to cough for such an item even though its obviously very good at its job.  Maybe its something to do with the fact I've worked very hard all my life and its sort of "payback time".  I really don't know, just that a weights been lifted and it reminds me of a posh looking yacht I once saw in a marina near Reading, England.  It was the best part of half a million quids worth of boat and the shiny name on the bow read......... "Kids inheritance".  I confess to a stifled giggle at that

 

[HiCal]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned amp ratings. The Festool dust extractors are designed to power any Festool tool including the Kapex and still not trip a 15 amp circuit. This limits the amount of power that the vac can produce. I have a new Midi that I have dedicated to the Kapex and also a Bosch that I use for everything else. The Bosch is rated at 150 cfm compared to the Midi at 130 cfm and it is a noticeable difference. However the Bosch/Kapex combo exceeds 15 amps.

I think a better plan is to get the less expensive CT15 to dedicate to the Kapex and then use the Midi for the other tools to make use of the added feature set, then use the Bosch for shop clean up. The added power is better for floor cleaning anyway.

 

[jcrowe1950]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned amp ratings. The Festool dust extractors are designed to power any Festool tool including the Kapex and still not trip a 15 amp circuit. This limits the amount of power that the vac can produce. I have a new Midi that I have dedicated to the Kapex and also a Bosch that I use for everything else. The Bosch is rated at 150 cfm compared to the Midi at 130 cfm and it is a noticeable difference. However the Bosch/Kapex combo exceeds 15 amps.

I think a better plan is to get the less expensive CT15 to dedicate to the Kapex and then use the Midi for the other tools to make use of the added feature set, then use the Bosch for shop clean up. The added power is better for floor cleaning anyway.

  According to Festool specs, the CT dust extractors will support 2200 watts, which is somewhere north of 18 amps @ 120volts. That means it is possible to run up to and including the OF 2200 from a CT dust extractor, though frankly I think that's pushing the envelope.  I would never run a CT dust extractor on a 15 amp 120 volt circuit personally and actually would prefer a 30 amp 120 volt circuit.

 

[Rob Z]

Hey Bob, 

I read your DNA reference to my wife, who teaches biology and who also worked for years in a lab doing DNA sequencing work.  She was quite amused and impressed with  the assessment of your genetic makeup.  [big grin] [big grin]

Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop  

Hey Bob, 

I read your DNA reference to my wife, who teaches biology and who also worked for years in a lab doing DNA sequencing work.  She was quite amused and impressed with  the assessment of your genetic makeup.  [big grin] [big grin]

Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!

 

[mino]

Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop  

Actually this is partially true, albeit most of it is cultural.

Societies living in harsh climate historically went through a natural selection that preferred self-control and orderly, planned conduct as this was simply necessary to survive. You can see the same traits in all the Nordics, Russians, etc. etc.

Whereas in mild climates there was less risk of the nature killing you by cold/weather and more risk of other people killing you. So opportunistic, more aggressive and immediate-reaction focused traits were preferred against "self-discipline" traits so critical in harsh climates.

You would probably find more in common traits between the Scotts and the Finns or Russians than you will between them and the (South) English.

 

[Rob Z]

Good evening Bob

I just read your latest musing to Mrs. Z and she had a solid laugh.  She feels you have a good background and are ready for more research. She suggests you look into something called "CRISPR" as a way to accomplish your goals (her words, not mine).  I asked what is "CRISPR" and got the university-level lecture and quickly had my eyes roll back  [scared] which is an indication that I am ready to move on to something less esoteric  [big grin]. My better half is thrilled when I make gemeli pasta for dinner because it looks like a double helix.  So you can see what gets her interest where I am just happy that my homemade sauce turned out well LOL.

Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop  

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