dang metric!

[Bugsysiegals]

Gosh, it would never even occur to me to try and convert imperial to metric so I could use the rules to set the distance of the parallel guides to cut strips of plywood. I would simply measure and pencil mark the distance I needed on both ends of the plywood with an imperial tape, set my guide rail on the plywood so the marks are split in half by the cutting strip of the guide rail, and then set the parallel guides in place so that it was repeatable for the next cut. Done.
Maybe I am missing something?

The level of precision desired varies person to person.  I bought the Incra fence for my table saw so I can have the highest level of precision possible.  I dislike inaccuracy so much that I only use the guide rail to rough cut items to size and then run panels through the table saw to ensure panels are parallel.  I wish I wasn’t so up tight about it as it’s extra effort but I know I cannot be precise with pencil lines, tape measure hooks flexing, guide rails not being exact, etc.

I’m currently working on adding a threaded rod into my Incra parallel guides so they work like the Incra fence. If I can get it working like the Incra table saw fence, I’ll be able to trust ripping to final size with the  TS55, have repeatable width cuts, etc.

Or maybe this level of precision is overkill for woodworking and being off by 0.5 to 1mm only matters to a few crazy people like me!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, I agree with almost everything you say. But I’m not sure it helps solve the OP’s frustration with feeling the need to convert imperial to metric (“dang metric!”). Whether I am using imperial or metric measurements has no bearing on my accuracy and precision. If I use math to convert from one system to the other, I would be worried about introducing an extra step that probably only increases the chances of error (an error like the OP said he made by multiplying by 24.5 instead of 25.4). And once converted, I still have to measure at some point to see if my setup and cut was accurate. The level of accuracy comes from the type of measuring and marking: a tailor’s cloth tape and crayon vs. a metal hook tape measure and pencil vs. a Woodpecker steel rule and marking knife; etc. The accuracy I shoot for is always dependent on the project (I don’t shoot for the same level of accuracy when I am cutting a 2x4 to frame a wall as I do if I am cutting joinery for a wooden jewelry box). But in almost all projects, the repeatability of similar parts (precision) is usually crucial. Once set accurately, the parallel guides should provide the precision the OP is looking for.

Agreed. Maybe an adhesive rule with metric and imperial would help to ensure the math wasn’t done wrong. I just bought this one which is accurate.

Starrett Measure Stix, SM44ME -...https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0025Q0KAC?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Coen]

Having lived and worked through a conversion to metric the reason is much more likely to be the fact that when it was tried in the US it was pushed too hard too fast. In the U.K. the process took decades to complete.

UK is an outlier in terms of how long it took. In most countries conversion was much quicker. That includes Commonwealth countries, that started later and finished earlier than UK.

Why stretch it out? Pulling off a band-aid is less painfull if you do it quickly.

Perhaps one of the reasons it went quicker in mainland Europe than in the UK has something to do with the fact that the French conquered a huge chunk of the continent from some time and people just keeping that system as it was more useful.

The UK never having been conquered ofc.

The Swedes even switched from driving on the left to driving on the right in 1 day. But that is something you quite obviously do not stretch out.

 

[Birdhunter]

There is a fascinating history of standardization of metrics. Now, an inch or a meter is exactly everywhere in the world.

 

[DeformedTree]

the US failure was they stretched it out, they didn't focus on global interaction/reality , and the biggest killer is they were all about conversions and showing people all these way to convert.  So people never thought metric, they would just use all these tools provided to convert back.  They caused people to easily avoid it.  Plus as has been mentioned, selling the benefits of something while pushing in the case of length a cm, verses using mm and m, people just didn't see a benefit over inch.  "American exceptionalism" was a huge part of the issue as well, I will leave it out of here and let people research it if they want to learn more, but it's not good discussion for here.

Anytime you give people dual dimensions, or conversion aids, you will fail.  You are telling someone to go to France, and learn french, but then allow them to use English the whole time for everything.

Just give weather forecast in C and C only, people will adapt in days.

People wanted to believe "we put an American on the moon without the metric system"  and similar comments, which of course was false, lots of metric was used.

 

[Birdhunter]

I have adapted rather easily to a dual metric and Imperial system (Inches and fractions) and also use thousands. I find metric is the easiest to use as I don’t have to work fractional conversions. Most of my Starrett measurement tools are thousands of an inch and that’s not hard as long as I don’t have to convert to fractions.

I did luck out and found a Starrett slide dial caliper that reads in thousands and in fractions.

I have found a neat trick as I am turning rather thick bracelets, getting the wrist hole consistently the same diameter throughout the hole is tricky. I use my slide caliper to mark the circumference of the wrist hole on both sides of the bracelet. I set a snap Gaga to the desired diameter, as I gut the hole, I constantly check the diameter with the snap gage. Slick!

 

[JeromeM]

Having lived and worked through a conversion to metric the reason is much more likely to be the fact that when it was tried in the US it was pushed too hard too fast. In the U.K. the process took decades to complete.

UK is an outlier in terms of how long it took. In most countries conversion was much quicker. That includes Commonwealth countries, that started later and finished earlier than UK.

Why stretch it out? Pulling off a band-aid is less painfull if you do it quickly.

The Swedes even switched from driving on the left to driving on the right in 1 day. But that is something you quite obviously do not stretch out.

Because trying to force  something in the U.K. results in very strong pushback.

All countries that switched from left to right did it overnight, impossible to do it any other way.

 

[JimD]

I am not going to convert to metric.  I avoid tools that require me to use metric but I have a domino and I like it.  I have learned to deal with it's use of metric but I still would prefer it had good old fractional inch cutters, depth scale, and fence position scale. 

There is nothing inherently better or more accurate about metric dimensions.  When I worked it was for a multi national with manufacturing in Europe, the U. S. and Japan.  Our drawings could be printed out in either system.  We had to develop rules about rounding and a few other things but it worked fine.  Parts were exchanged between facilities all the time.  Any implication that metric is somehow better is just wrong.  The choice is arbitrary. 

It is not convenient that I need fractional inch sockets and wrenches AND metric tools but I have both so it isn't a big deal at this point.  But for wood working I work in the dimensions I like but I have steel rules with both systems and dial calipers that switch with a push of the button.  I need the metric meaureing tools when making my own domino tenons but don't often use them for anything else. 

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work. 

 

[Svar]

Any implication that metric is somehow better is just wrong. 

Metric (SI) is better because a) it has decimal scale from unit to unit, and b) physical quantities (length, mass, energy, etc.) nicely derive from each other in most cases.

People often think that metric/imperial debate is about tape measures. It's not even the tip of the iceberg.
The direct result of having imperial system is that 9 out of 10 Americans (I'm being optimistic here) can't tell you density of water in their native units, or how many gallons fit into cubic yard, etc. etc.

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.

I think you've identified the problem here. Routine scientific progress perceived as conspiracy or political coercion. Guess who's loss is that.

 

[DeformedTree]

Any implication that metric is somehow better is just wrong. 

Metric (SI) is better because a) it has decimal scale from unit to unit, and b) physical quantities (length, mass, energy, etc.) nicely derive from each other in most cases.

People often think that metric/imperial debate is about tape measures. It's not even the tip of the iceberg.
The direct result of having imperial system is that 9 out of 10 Americans (I'm being optimistic here) can't tell you density of water in their native units, or how many gallons fit into cubic yard, etc. etc.

In general, people have no sense of the dimensions they even use.  Say miles vs km,  people can't give you an accurate estimate of large dimensions (more than 20 feet even, let alone 1/4 mile),  so saying they are comfortable in miles is silly since no one gauges it well either way.  Same for weight, people are terrible at judging weight of something.  Same for temp, no one can reach their hand out and say "it's changed 2 degrees".  This is why the "comfortable/know" aspect of it means nothing.  We could change the units tomorrow and folks would adjust quickly because they only know what something is by looking at the gauge/etc anyway.    Short distances (sub a foot or so) is about the only area people really have a somewhat decent sense of things.

As you mention, it is so much bigger than just tape measures, and that's why when people say it doesn't matter it gets very infuriating.

I mentioned the space program before, many in the US continually think the US put man on moon without metric, which is completely false.  The core folks were german, the math for it all was in metric.  The computers in the craft, input/output in US customary because that's what the crew knew, the first thing it did was convert to metric.  They flew to the moon in metric.  No sane person would do that math in customary units, and you certainly would not risk lives to a lb-mass, lb-force debacle.

End of the day, having unit system that aligns with our base 10 number system is key.  Furthermore, being compatible with the other 96% of the world is what matters.  Unified units, that allow easy math, and easy understanding of things is extremely valuable.  Our lives are a mess with Horsepower, Btu/hr, Tons of ice, etc for different systems, it's all power.  Just show it in kW.

 

[vkumar]

In general, people have no sense of the dimensions they even use.  Say miles vs km,  people can't give you an accurate estimate of large dimensions (more than 20 feet even, let alone 1/4 mile),  so saying they are comfortable in miles is silly since no one gauges it well either way.  Same for weight, people are terrible at judging weight of something.  Same for temp, no one can reach their hand out and say "it's changed 2 degrees".  This is why the "comfortable/know" aspect of it means nothing.  We could change the units tomorrow and folks would adjust quickly because they only know what something is by looking at the gauge/etc anyway.    Short distances (sub a foot or so) is about the only area people really have a somewhat decent sense of things.

As you mention, it is so much bigger than just tape measures, and that's why when people say it doesn't matter it gets very infuriating.

I mentioned the space program before, many in the US continually think the US put man on moon without metric, which is completely false.  The core folks were german, the math for it all was in metric.  The computers in the craft, input/output in US customary because that's what the crew knew, the first thing it did was convert to metric.  They flew to the moon in metric.  No sane person would do that math in customary units, and you certainly would not risk lives to a lb-mass, lb-force debacle.

End of the day, having unit system that aligns with our base 10 number system is key.  Furthermore, being compatible with the other 96% of the world is what matters.  Unified units, that allow easy math, and easy understanding of things is extremely valuable.  Our lives are a mess with Horsepower, Btu/hr, Tons of ice, etc for different systems, it's all power.  Just show it in kW.

[member=68063]DeformedTree[/member] I couldnt have said it better.

 

[JeromeM]

I mentioned the space program before, many in the US continually think the US put man on moon without metric, which is completely false.  The core folks were german, the math for it all was in metric.  The computers in the craft, input/output in US customary because that's what the crew knew, the first thing it did was convert to metric.  They flew to the moon in metric.  No sane person would do that math in customary units, and you certainly would not risk lives to a lb-mass, lb-force debacle.

There has already been at least 1 multi million craft lost because if confusion in using imperial instead of metric.

If you use the system used by the majority of the planet Instead of a dinky small percentage who have delusions of importance you have fewer opportunities for messing up.

 

[semenza]

Lets keep the international mud slinging out of this, please.

Seth

 

[Jim_in_PA]

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work.

The reality is that aside from average folks and, perhaps the building trades, US industry, pharma and pretty much everything else went metric a long time ago. But I agree that each person should use the system they prefer in their own personal endeavors.

 

[DeformedTree]

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work.

The reality is that aside from average folks and, perhaps the building trades, US industry, pharma and pretty much everything else went metric a long time ago. But I agree that each person should use the system they prefer in their own personal endeavors.

The problem with letting people do what ever is it holds the rest of us back. Those who just want to be metric are denied by hold out mentality.  It also just hurts us all around because so much caters to those who won't change.  Yes, if people just want to have their inches at home, that would fine.  But roadways need to be in metric, the weather forecast, building materials, all of it.

The continued allowance of customary units gets folks killed, this is heavily seen in medical, where people get overdosed all the time. It should be all metric, but since some people refuse to use metric, and do conversions, people get killed.  The people in these fields should not be allowed to do anything but metric.

Link

Link

So much of this is what you see brought up by folks like myself, things are in metric, but then folks change it to customary at the end to be "helpful" or because that's "what the person is used to".  Stuff like this is all around.

Do you want your kid, grandchild, or yourself killed because folks in the hospital are comfortable in customary units so let them be them?  If people don't use metric in their personal lives, it's less likely they will use it in there professional lives, and now this creates serious problems.

 

[mkasdin]

I am not going to convert to metric.  I avoid tools that require me to use metric but I have a domino and I like it.  I have learned to deal with it's use of metric but I still would prefer it had good old fractional inch cutters, depth scale, and fence position scale. 

There is nothing inherently better or more accurate about metric dimensions.  When I worked it was for a multi national with manufacturing in Europe, the U. S. and Japan.  Our drawings could be printed out in either system.  We had to develop rules about rounding and a few other things but it worked fine.  Parts were exchanged between facilities all the time.  Any implication that metric is somehow better is just wrong.  The choice is arbitrary. 

It is not convenient that I need fractional inch sockets and wrenches AND metric tools but I have both so it isn't a big deal at this point.  But for wood working I work in the dimensions I like but I have steel rules with both systems and dial calipers that switch with a push of the button.  I need the metric meaureing tools when making my own domino tenons but don't often use them for anything else. 

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work.

for fine woodworking or close tolerance measurements I use metric, not for the reason you think? On a tape measure the scale is 1/16 and 32nds. At my age and with my glasses I have a difficult time seeing 1/32” increments. On the metric rules they are divided into fifths (woodpecker) so I can see those well enough in most lighting conditions. So I can see in between those measurements which gives me 1/50th of a scale or .5mm. Also I find it error prone to add fractions 1 5/8” + 7/16”. Metric is more straight forward.

 

[Coen]

Black & Decker sold workmates in Europe with a "conversion" table on it... with wrong values.

Stanly sold bandmeasures with the length of the body imprinted only in inches. I converted it to metric, measured the tape measure body... and it was off too.

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work.

The reality is that aside from average folks and, perhaps the building trades, US industry, pharma and pretty much everything else went metric a long time ago. But I agree that each person should use the system they prefer in their own personal endeavors.

The problem with letting people do what ever is it holds the rest of us back. Those who just want to be metric are denied by hold out mentality.  It also just hurts us all around because so much caters to those who won't change.  Yes, if people just want to have their inches at home, that would fine.  But roadways need to be in metric, the weather forecast, building materials, all of it.

The continued allowance of customary units gets folks killed, this is heavily seen in medical, where people get overdosed all the time. It should be all metric, but since some people refuse to use metric, and do conversions, people get killed.  The people in these fields should not be allowed to do anything but metric.

Link

Link

So much of this is what you see brought up by folks like myself, things are in metric, but then folks change it to customary at the end to be "helpful" or because that's "what the person is used to".  Stuff like this is all around.

Do you want your kid, grandchild, or yourself killed because folks in the hospital are comfortable in customary units so let them be them?  If people don't use metric in their personal lives, it's less likely they will use it in there professional lives, and now this creates serious problems.

Don't forget about the Gimli Glider, an airliner that crash-landed due to fuel shortage because someone pumped xx pounds instead of xx kg's into it.

The funny thing is that journalists all over the place here can't even convert properly when a news story originated in the US. The Dutch 'pond' was a customary name for 500 grams. The US 'pound' [lbs] is not 500 gram but 453,....... gram.

All these units like 'teaspoons' is just something from online recipes that always end in something that isn't edible.

I am not going to convert to metric.  I avoid tools that require me to use metric but I have a domino and I like it.  I have learned to deal with it's use of metric but I still would prefer it had good old fractional inch cutters, depth scale, and fence position scale. 

There is nothing inherently better or more accurate about metric dimensions.  When I worked it was for a multi national with manufacturing in Europe, the U. S. and Japan.  Our drawings could be printed out in either system.  We had to develop rules about rounding and a few other things but it worked fine.  Parts were exchanged between facilities all the time.  Any implication that metric is somehow better is just wrong.  The choice is arbitrary. 

It is not convenient that I need fractional inch sockets and wrenches AND metric tools but I have both so it isn't a big deal at this point.  But for wood working I work in the dimensions I like but I have steel rules with both systems and dial calipers that switch with a push of the button.  I need the metric meaureing tools when making my own domino tenons but don't often use them for anything else. 

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work.

The US has already caved. About 60 years ago the inch was defined as being 25.4mm, the yard was defined as being exactly 0.9144 m and the pound was fixed at 0.45359237 kg. So in fact all Imperial is now is a conversion factor on top of metric to confuse things to the maximum and to sell more Allen keys.  : And to charge more for US college textbooks I guess.

I suggest we strike a deal; we get busy copying some amendments from your constitution for general adoption here while you implement the metric system; best for everyone  8)

 

[DeformedTree]

Conversion table stuff being wrong is common.  As has been brought up before, the US does not us Imperial System and never has.  The US uses the US System of Customary Units.  Most are the same, but some are not.  This is why Festool calling their US tools with inch labeling is Imperial is just so silly.  They are for the US, but not Customary?  Just shows the sorts of confusion that happens.

Liquid stuff is bad because so many don't know the Customary units,  teaspoons/tablespsoons/pints/quarts/etc.  Older folks know how to go between them, but as you go younger, no one knows.  Add to that the US half converted to metric when it comes to volumes, you never know what you are going to deal with. If something says 2 tablespoons, and you have a tablespoon, no problem. But if you only have a teaspoon, no idea how many go into tablespoon, or if that even works. I'd love to have all metric measurement stuff for cooking, but you can't find them, some are dual labeled, but you can be pretty sure one of those labels are wrong.

Then there are tons.  It shouldn't be hard, but in the end, the whole world needs to retire all versions of "ton", as it takes so much work to hope you are all talking the same thing. 

Not sure how much it impacts text books, most text books are metric only here.  Unless it's a long running text, anything in a technical field is all metric, sometime half and half. Some will have some examples in customary units, often just to show why customary units are not used.

 

[Svar]

Then there are tons.  It shouldn't be hard, but in the end, the whole world needs to retire all versions of "ton", as it takes so much work to hope you are all talking the same thing. 

I most of the world ton means only one thing - 1000kg. Most people never even heard about anything else (long ton, short ton, UK ton).

 

[JeromeM]

Conversion table stuff being wrong is common.  As has been brought up before, the US does not us Imperial System and never has.  The US uses the US System of Customary Units.  Most are the same, but some are not.  This is why Festool calling their US tools with inch labeling is Imperial is just so silly.  They are for the US, but not Customary?  Just shows the sorts of confusion that happens.

There are a couple of countries left that use the imperial measuring system and a few more who understand it and use it in parallel, none of them call it  "Customary" or  "Standard"

Linear measurements are identical in US Customary, US Standard and imperial.

So you seem to be getting your underwear tangled over a word.

So changing to the word "Customary" to satisfy your desire for conformity to US usage (though is it "Standard") will significantly add confusion to other markets. Not to mention that grey imported items will probably still be imperial or metric, so how does that help?

[slightly sarcastic humour] Calm down with a nice cup of tea, if you can't find any if you visit Boston's harbour they may have a little, though not so fresh[/slightly sarcastic humour]

Liquid stuff is bad because so many don't know the Customary units, 

Not to mention the 2 different US gallons of 4.404883771 “dry” litres or 3.785411784 “wet” litres or even the imperial 4.54609 litres. [eek]

 

[DeformedTree]

Then there are tons.  It shouldn't be hard, but in the end, the whole world needs to retire all versions of "ton", as it takes so much work to hope you are all talking the same thing. 

I most of the world ton means only one thing - 1000kg. Most people never even heard about anything else (long ton, short ton, UK ton).

I've never found a good conclusive answer, the biggest issue I see come up is usage of Tonne, people in the US tend to think that is what everyone calls 1000kg, un-aware that for everyone else it's a ton.  But some research implies other places use the word Tonne, but I'm skeptical based on experience.