Dark Stain or Process - Advice Please

[Stone Message]

Hello Everyone

I have been asked to make a desk (I have made many over the years) but my client wants the wood to be as dark as possible. I would like to know what base wood you would recommend and what stain or finishing method you would use in order for everything to be quite dark. But...

The grain of the wood must show.

I want to use solid wood for framing and edging but veneer faced MDF for the large fields.

I need to use wood that is easily available in the UK - Perhaps a UK member can list these remembering that veneered MDF needs to be available.

The top will be solid wood that I will have to joint and join.

I may have to do some inlay with light coloured wood so the staining has to be done before assembly.

I will want to finish with PolyX at the very end.

The build will certainly warrant a magazine article and perhaps a 'how to' video.

Many thanks in advance.

Peter

 

[Scott B.]

Peter

That's very exciting, good for you.

Wood species determines product selection, and product selection drives process.

What species will you be working with?

 

[tiralie]

Peter:
My first thought would be to use Ash or any open grained wood. Based on some of the posts by others in the UK Ash seems to be readily available in both solid and veneered stock in various thicknesses.
Other species such as Oak or Walnut would work but since the customer would like you to make it  as dark as possible it doesn't make sense to pay for walnut and then obscure the beautiful grain.
Because black is the darkest you can go (other than a black hole) I would then ebonize it either with home made ebonizer or a commercially available ebony dye such as General Finishes Ebony.
Tim

 

[mastercabman]

I would do red oak with black stain!          Yeah.......oak with black stain! [thumbs up]

 

[Nick C]

I vote for Ash, with black alcohol or water-based stain. You need to fill the grain, which will show a slightly different shade when the piece is stained. It's a very nice finish--The grain will be subtle, but visible.

 

[Stone Message]

I vote for Ash, with black alcohol or water-based stain. You need to fill the grain, which will show a slightly different shade when the piece is stained. It's a very nice finish--The grain will be subtle, but visible.

Thanks Nick. I have had advice from elsewhere saying that Ash is the way to go. I assume that the grain needs to be filled ahead of the stain or is the grain filler dark too?

Peter

 

[tjbnwi]

If you can get quarter sawn or rift sawn white oak use it. To ebonize the oak;

Soak steel wool in vinegar (glass jar only, place lid on loosely), you must make sure the steel wool is completely covered with the vinegar. Let stand a couple of days. You can add a few rusty nails to aid the process. Clear vinegar, make sure it is real steel wool not a synthetic. Drain off the liquid through a cheese cloth (again glass vessel only), do not squeeze out the steel wool. Longer than a 10 day soak is not good, you will get more brown than black.

Brush this solution on the wood. The reaction with the tannin will turn the wood black.

This process works on any high tannin wood. You can use the process on low tannin woods (the ash for example, maple also)- brew up strong black tea, brush a couple of coats of tea on the wood. The solution will react with the tannin in the tea.

Tom

 

[Stone Message]

If you can get quarter sawn or rift sawn white oak use it. To ebonize the oak;

Soak steel wool in vinegar (glass jar only, place lid on loosely), you must make sure the steel wool is completely covered with the vinegar. Let stand a couple of days. You can add a few rusty nails to aid the process. Clear vinegar, make sure it is real steel wool not a synthetic. Drain off the liquid through a cheese cloth (again glass vessel only), do not squeeze out the steel wool. Longer than a 10 day soak is not good, you will get more brown than black.

Brush this solution on the wood. The reaction with the tannin will turn the wood black.

This process works on any high tannin wood. You can use the process on low tannin woods (the ash for example, maple also)- brew up strong black tea, brush a couple of coats of tea on the wood. The solution will react with the tannin in the tea.

Tom

Brilliant - I will start some trials today. Thanks Tom.

Peter

 

[tiralie]

I vote for Ash, with black alcohol or water-based stain. You need to fill the grain, which will show a slightly different shade when the piece is stained. It's a very nice finish--The grain will be subtle, but visible.

Thanks Nick. I have had advice from elsewhere saying that Ash is the way to go. I assume that the grain needs to be filled ahead of the stain or is the grain filler dark too?

Peter

Peter:
I thought your client wanted the grain to show, why would you fill it?
Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

You should test black stains/dyes, they tend to have a purple cast to them. I've had that problem with maple, never used it on Ash.

Tom

 

[mouppe]

I just finished a bookcase in solid red oak, stained very dark. After sanding to 220, I used two coats of Lockwood's water-based dark brown walnut dye, sanding after each to smooth out the raised grain. Then two coats of Varathane oil-based dark walnut gel stain. Finish was three coats Minwax wipe-on poly. The only downside is the long drying time in my garage which doesn't get above 15 degrees C in the winter. Plus I have to keep opening the garage door to air the garage. The garage is not part of the house's HVAC system so there is no cross-contamination but it's still a pain to try to cure a finish when it's -15 degrees C outside!

I used oak because it was dead cheap and this bookcase is huge, but the downside of using a pale wood is that it takes considerable effort to get a dark finish. Hence the WB dye followed by a gel stain. If it was for a smaller project I would use walnut, and you could get away with a garnet shellac- my first-choice- or a gel stain alone.

The result is a very chocolate colour, nice and smooth, and not plastic-looking. The grain is very visible. I'll take a picture later of one of the panels.

Maybe this would work for your desk?

 

[Stone Message]

I vote for Ash, with black alcohol or water-based stain. You need to fill the grain, which will show a slightly different shade when the piece is stained. It's a very nice finish--The grain will be subtle, but visible.

Thanks Nick. I have had advice from elsewhere saying that Ash is the way to go. I assume that the grain needs to be filled ahead of the stain or is the grain filler dark too?

Peter

Peter:
I thought your client wanted the grain to show, why would you fill it?
Tim

Hi Tim,

The grain would still show but the surface would be smooth(er).

Peter

 

[Stone Message]

You should test black stains/dyes, they tend to have a purple cast to them. I've had that problem with maple, never used it on Ash.

Tom

Thanks Tom - I certainly will test whatever I end up using.

Peter

 

[Stone Message]

I just finished a bookcase in solid red oak, stained very dark. After sanding to 220, I used two coats of Lockwood's water-based dark brown walnut dye, sanding after each to smooth out the raised grain. Then two coats of Varathane oil-based dark walnut gel stain. Finish was three coats Minwax wipe-on poly. The only downside is the long drying time in my garage which doesn't get above 15 degrees C in the winter. Plus I have to keep opening the garage door to air the garage. The garage is not part of the house's HVAC system so there is no cross-contamination but it's still a pain to try to cure a finish when it's -15 degrees C outside!

I used oak because it was dead cheap and this bookcase is huge, but the downside of using a pale wood is that it takes considerable effort to get a dark finish. Hence the WB dye followed by a gel stain. If it was for a smaller project I would use walnut, and you could get away with a garnet shellac- my first-choice- or a gel stain alone.

The result is a very chocolate colour, nice and smooth, and not plastic-looking. The grain is very visible. I'll take a picture later of one of the panels.

Maybe this would work for your desk?

Hi Richard,

I look forward to some pictures. I need to check what stains are available on this side of the Pond.

Peter

 

[mouppe]

Here you go...

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[Stone Message]

Hi Richard,

The stain looks great. Thank you for the pictures.

I hate it when my workshop gets cold and have to use smelly-fumey stuff - if you open the windows the temperature drops too much for whatever it is you are using and if you keep them shut then you choke!

Our first winter in Canada was quite bad - within 2 week of our arrival in the country it was minus 30 Centigrade. It warmed up a bit on one nice sunny day and I went for a run and nearly died - it was still minus 15. I had no workshop and I remember using my router on the back door step. The draught from the motor cooled my fingers down rather rapidly. I was lucky not to get FB but I had a handful of chilblains instead.

Peter

 

[Scott B.]

Hi Richard,

The stain looks great. Thank you for the pictures.

I hate it when my workshop gets cold and have to use smelly-fumey stuff - if you open the windows the temperature drops too much for whatever it is you are using and if you keep them shut then you choke!

Our first winter in Canada was quite bad - within 2 week of our arrival in the country it was minus 30 Centigrade. It warmed up a bit on one nice sunny day and I went for a run and nearly died - it was still minus 15. I had no workshop and I remember using my router on the back door step. The draught from the motor cooled my fingers down rather rapidly. I was lucky not to get FB but I had a handful of chilblains instead.

Peter

That does happen for sure. There is alot that goes into designing ideal finishing space. Its almost as important as the products you are using and the application method. All 3 impact each other.

I feel for you, though, trying to do those finishes in those conditions. Way less than ideal.

 

[Nick C]

Regarding the use of a grain filler: A product like "Pore O Pac" (Behlen) is available in several colors, and it can also be colored by adding a UTC (universal tinting colorant). It's a great product for Ash--a glass-smooth finish. I would use it before staining.

 

[richard.selwyn]

Peter,
I have had to produce some dark stained work to look like Wenge - (not sure if that's dark enough or if you  need an ebony look)
I used 'broux de noix' which is a stain made of walnut shells-sorry don't know the English term but I'm sure you do. Beech, pine and white oak all ended up looking very similar.
Otherwise the tips about reacting the tannin in oak are spot on - oxyalic acid ? or some other acid has made white oak go very dark for me (but fumes may be a problem - I use it outside and rinse off)
I once used sugar soap very effectively by mistake - turned the oak almost black-could e worth a test.
Look forward to seeing the results.
Richard

 

[Stone Message]

I thought that I would try Google translate on that - 'Broux Nuts'. So then I tried Babylon - 'Walnut Broux', but I know what you mean. I was shopping in Leroy Merlin in Calais last week and then went to the Auchan for some of Pierre Chanau's recommendations.

I have a meeting this weekend where I will tender some stained samples and hopefully get a better feel for what is required.

I suspect that Ash in a smooth very dark, almost black, will be the requirement. The Ash that I have done has only had some Jacobian Oak spirit stain applied and does not quite look dark enough.

Thanks to everyone for the help so far. I am still open to suggestions.

Peter