Delaminating veneer on plywood

[Packard]

A few months ago I built a “coffee bar” using maple veneered 3/4” ply.  A small job, but it took a bit of time because of the required templating, trimming and finishing.

The maple veneer is now delaminating.

1.  I paid about $90.00 for the plywood from Lowes.  I can’t produce the receipt but it was paid for with my AMEX card—so traceable. 

2.  Do I just walk in with photos, or samples from the unused portion to the returns desk?

3.  Do I contact the store manager or write to headquarters.

It is clearly a defective sheet of ply.  Even if they do give me a credit for the plywood, it is doubtful that they would cover my other costs or my labor.

How would you approach this?  I’m pretty upset.  I have about 10 hours labor invested, trim pieces and finish.  Plus, I like the coffee bar. 

I wrote about this earlier when I was still happy with the plywood.  Image is shown.  I will try to get an image of the delaminations, but I am not certain that it will photograph well.

 

[kevinculle]

I do not expect Lowe's to offer anything beyond an adjustment or refund of the plywood purchase price.  In my experience the quality of plywood available from the big box stores is very unpredictable and the surprises are usually on the bad side.  For any serious project I source my sheet goods from a specialty supplier whose business is mostly with cabinet shops...I've never had a problem with their plywood.  Sorry for your troubles.

 

[tjbnwi]

Don’t expect much more than the cost of the sheet.

I had a couple of bunks of pre-finished maple ply that had issues, all I got was a too bad, should have caught it before the cabinets were made. Cost me almost 5K.

We no longer use that brand plywood or supplier.

Tom

 

[squall_line]

Depending on the local store and local manager, I've seen them blame the customer for working with the product out of scope or otherwise causing the damage themselves.  Sometimes it depends on how good or bad of a quarter the manager just had, unfortunately.

 

[eschumac]

Poly top in a window with a lot of sun. Maybe a lot of temp changes? Moisture? Single pane glass? I see a very old unsafe baseboard heater on the wall.

What city is this in?

 

[Packard]

I just walked into the shop to examine the off-cuts.  They are not exhibiting any delaminations. 

Does that mean I have to use solid lumber for this?

I don’t think it should have delaminated, especially in the winter in a climate controlled environment.

I have a 12’ x 30” desk made from two pieces of oak plywood with the same oil-based finish.  It looks fine after 25+ years, and a western exposure which gets more intense light than the eastern exposure for the coffee bar.

My expectations were that this plywood should last for years, not months.

 

[eschumac]

Need to tell us more if you want to know why it happened.

I doubt Lowes would give you anything.

Scrap wont tell you anything. I'm guessing the issue is the location of install, environmental and potentially how you finished it.

 

[squall_line]

The best way to get a picture would probably be with a raking light to highlight the delamination.

I'm guessing that the 25+ year old oak plywood has a thicker face than the recent maple plywood, even if they're finished the same.  Are they both subject to similar temperature and/or humidity as each other?

 

[luvmytoolz]

Unless condensation is running down the glass onto the top I don't see anything in that install that would cause a good sheet to go faulty. I would hazard the sheet itself was faulty (dry glue join in that area?) and the heat from the window over time caused it to raise. From memory you only did this recently, if the damage was purely caused by the window/environment I would think it should surely take a longer to break down?

I've often  left plywood and timber scraps outside for ages and it's always taken a very appreciable amount of time before they break down or delaminate.

 

[Packard]

Need to tell us more if you want to know why it happened.

I doubt Lowes would give you anything.

Scrap wont tell you anything. I'm guessing the issue is the location of install, environmental and potentially how you finished it.

Finished with 7 coats of wipe on poly (50% Minwax oil based poly/50% mineral spirits).

The sunroom is a three season room. It has electric heat, but I never turn it on).  It never drops below 65 degrees, and in the colder months that it has existed, never experiences temperatures above 70 degrees.  The morning sun warms the room to make it comfortable in the fall and winter.  In the summer it gets hot, but the counter has yet to experience that.

I have used this finish for many years.  It has proven to be tough and durable. And I find it more attractive than any of the water based finishes.

The counter was finished off with butchers wax applied with 0000 steel wool.

That’s about all that I can offer on the finish, environment and age of the projects.

I would add that the remainder of the sheet was stored first in an unheated garage, before it’s recent move to the unheated (but comfortable) basement shop. The unfinished ply shows no delaminating, however, I will not use it for any serious projects.

 

[eschumac]

Have you used your finish approach on plywood before? Could have been too much spirits for whatever that laminate used.

 

[Packard]

Have you used your finish approach on plywood before? Could have been too much spirits for whatever that laminate used.

Yes.  It is my clear finish of choice.  I use it to topcoat painted surfaces as we as stained pieces. 

But I think I will make a sample board comparing wipeon, straight oil based poly, and water based poly and let it age a bit to see if there is any difference.

I have never heard of anyone having delamination issues with this finish.

I forgot to mention that I preceded those wipe on coats with a coat of Seal Coat (2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac).

I always use an initial coat of Seal Coat on all my clear finishes.  I would think that the Seal Coat would protect the surface from any additional penetration the added mineral spirits might bring.

If this is my fault, I would want to know.

Note:  The afore mentioned oak ply desk top did not have the Seal Coat.  It was just brushed on Minwax Poly.  I have added the Seal Coat only in the last 5 years.

 

[Packard]

Do we think that these photos are sufficient to make my case? Enlarging the image seems to make the case better. I have nothing to actually carry in without first demolishing the counter.  I would want to use this counter as the template for the next one—so I have to hold onto it until I cut the next one.

 

[woodferret]

Looks like UV/sun damage and usage on a really thin veneer.  It's started near the solid edge banding (where the veneer is probably even thinner due to sanding?)

It being a drinking area really doesn't help matters. 

 

[Packard]

So whose fault is that?

Mine, for using it in a mildly hostile environment, where historically this application would have proven durable.

Or, Lowes’ for selling a product without a warning:  The product may not endure where historically it had, due to improved production capabilities that allow the product to have substantially thinner veneers than in the past. 

 

[dicktill]

... or instead of yanking the whole thing out and redoing it, what about sanding/scraping the crappy veneer off and applying your choice of new veneer or laminate or ?

 

[woodferret]

If it makes you feel any better, even the latest Herman Miller product sheet and care instructions cautions that their veneer products are susceptible to UV damage.  Goes so far as to suggest users keep moving things about the desk to equalize it and to shade it from direct exposure. 

So you're hardly alone here.

 

[Michael Kellough]

That patch looks like what happens when veneer gets wet and then dries. Can moisture get into the veneer along the joint between the edge strip?

 

[Packard]

That patch looks like what happens when veneer gets wet and then dries. Can moisture get into the veneer along the joint between the edge strip?

The room is entirely dry.  No water intrusion at all.  Prime windows and door, insulated, but with an electric baseboard heater which I never use. 

I think I’m a victim of technology.  The new improved technology allows them to use veneers that are just thousandths of an inch thick.  They have to limit the amount of adhesive or it will saturate the thinner veneer.

Some 54 years ago, when I moved into my first apartment, I made an improvised desk using a hollow core door. It had plywood door skins, a generous solid wood surround and honeycomb bonded to both interior surfaces.

Some 25 years ago, when I moved into my current house, I made a temporary and improvised desk from a hollow core door.  It quickly caved under the weight of my printer. 

It seems that the improved  technology allows for skins made from cardboard with a very thin veneer.  The honeycomb was placed loosely in the cavities.  The premiere was just 1” wide. 

I don’t think I have a case with Lowes. 

It is just another instance of improved process yielding substandard products. 

Plywood is, I guess, not suited as a countertop material. I will have to seek out materials that are designed for counter top use. 

Of course the question becomes:  What is plywood suitable for?  At this time, I am no longer sure.  I built two cabinets that straddle a window.  Will they delaminate.  They are painted, so I am hopeful.  Hopeful, but not sure.

 

[jeffinsgf]

What sets off an alarm for me is a finish that includes 50% mineral spirits. That sounds like a very, very high concentration of solvent. I don't think pre-packaged Minwax wipe on poly is anywhere close to that mixture ratio.