Design Challenge - Sliding Shelf for Digital Piano

Dan Clark

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Messages
540
Hi.  It's been a long time since I posted.  I hope all of you are well and happy.   

My design challenge is this... I need to install my shiny new digital piano to replace my old digital piano, currently installed in a nook.  (See pics below)

But, there's a couple catches...  First, the new piano need to be installed in a way that allows it to slide out for services.  Second the DP is only about 1/8th inch smaller the opening, which placement of the sliding shelf very precise using my current design.   One major issue is precisely aligning the slide so that the sliding shelf will pull out smoothly and slide out be perfectly straight.  So...

Is my current design a good approach?   I'm completely open to other approaches.  And, is there a good way of installing the sliders so that they slide straight and smooth.

Thanks for any feedback.  Regards,

Dan.

New Digital Piano:
DTC_2014_0414_150-X2.jpg

DTC_2013_0724_2-X2.jpg
 

Attachments

  • MusicNook1.jpg
    MusicNook1.jpg
    184 KB · Views: 350
  • MusicNook2.jpg
    MusicNook2.jpg
    341.4 KB · Views: 317
Weight of the new unit?

I would use undercount slides. Mount the bracket to studs, use a 2x below to add support to the bottom of the slide. Plywood surface connecting the two slides.

Tom
 
tjbnwi said:
Weight of the new unit?

I would use undercount slides. Mount the bracket to studs, use a 2x below to add support to the bottom of the slide. Plywood surface connecting the two slides.

Tom
Tom,

Thanks for the feedback.  That is essentially the plan, but your comments made me think this through further.  

First, the sliders I'm planning to use are the Accuride 18" Heavy-Duty Undermount Shelf/Pantry Slides - Model 301-2590-18. (http://www.thehardwarehut.com/catalog-product.php?p_ref=296545)   I neglected to mention that in my first post.

Regarding the mounting...  The studs are not 16" on center, the walls are not 90 degrees or parallel, and they are slightly cupped.    One option is using brackets (shown in prior pic).  Another, probably more secure option, is to extend the support 2X4's and mount them to the wall's corner 2x's.   See attached closeup.   This assumes that the support 2X4 can be flipped vertically (see pic) and still provide a good mounting surface for the slider flanges.    When looked at from the top, the slider flanges on the support 2X4 will probably be at an angle so that the piano slides smoothly out of the opening.

The piano weighs 75lbs.  With the shelf, I think it will be 80-82 lbs.   The 18" sliders have a 130lb load rating per pair (@50,000 cycles).   Given that the piano will only be pulled out for maintenance or connecting cables, the load rating should be more than adequate.

Any issues you can see for this approach?   Better options?  (I'm completely open for other options.)

Thanks,

Dan.
 

Attachments

  • MusicNook3_SliderCloseup.jpg
    MusicNook3_SliderCloseup.jpg
    278.5 KB · Views: 258
I just installed 2 sets of that slide (18"), they go in fairly easily - screw the fixed portion down, slide them out, set the shelf down and screw it on from from the bottom. The mounting holes are slightly elongated to allow for some adjustment.

I bought mine from cabinetparts.com
 
I'd be making certain the end faces of your DP and the the corresponding rectangular sections of wall it's sliding into are nice a slippery!
 
Kev said:
I'd be making certain the end faces of your DP and the the corresponding rectangular sections of wall it's sliding into are nice a slippery!
LOL. Precision and alignment is the name of the game here.  At the front corners of the nook, there is only 1/16" space on either end of the DP. That's why I have the 18" slide - so that it can be set on the DP shelf outside of the nook.

The nook drywall is concave on the sides of the nook, so it widens to about 3/16 on each end.  Not much, but it's something. 

Should be "fun".

Dan.
 
That is a pretty long shelf to only be supported at the end. Since the sliders are only used occasionally I would install a cleat on the back wall to keep the shelf from sagging. I would need to be angled at the front so it won't catch on the back of the shelf as you slide it back in. You might be able to hang something on the center Elfa upright to accomplish this.

The other thing you could do is run skirt along the front of the shelf. This would do two things, give the shelf some lateral stiffness and hide the sliders.

 
Dan:

I'm not sure but Accuride may offer something similar to Blum that helps prevent wide pull-out drawers from racking.
Tip-on for Tandem plus Synchronization set
 

Attachments

Colonel Panic said:
That is a pretty long shelf to only be supported at the end. Since the sliders are only used occasionally I would install a cleat on the back wall to keep the shelf from sagging. I would need to be angled at the front so it won't catch on the back of the shelf as you slide it back in. You might be able to hang something on the center Elfa upright to accomplish this.

The other thing you could do is run skirt along the front of the shelf. This would do two things, give the shelf some lateral stiffness and hide the sliders.
Colonel,

Good points.   The cleat in the back may not be necessary because all of the weight will be on the four little feet, which are right over the slider.  That said, think I can get a nice straight 2X3, and glue and screw it to the back of the DP shelf.   It would not rest on the slider support boards.   Since most of the DP's weight is at the back, that should eliminate any residual sag.

I like the idea of a skirt on the front of the DP shelf.  A lot!   The only gotcha is that my legs need to go under that skirt in the center so it would have to be fairly short there, but deep on the ends to hide the slider and support 2X's.    Maybe a nice dark stain to match the ends of the DP.

New pic attached showing your changes.

Thanks,

Dan.
 

Attachments

  • MusicNook3_SliderCloseup2.jpg
    MusicNook3_SliderCloseup2.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 291
Phred said:
Dan:

I'm not sure but Accuride may offer something similar to Blum that helps prevent wide pull-out drawers from racking.
Tip-on for Tandem plus Synchronization set
Phred,

Thanks.  Since I want to get this built and installed next weekend, I ordered 18" Accurides a couple hours ago.  Hopefully this will resolve the issues.

Regards,

Dan.
 
Dan Clark said:
tjbnwi said:
Weight of the new unit?

I would use undercount slides. Mount the bracket to studs, use a 2x below to add support to the bottom of the slide. Plywood surface connecting the two slides.

Tom
Tom,

Thanks for the feedback.  That is essentially the plan, but your comments made me think this through further.  

First, the sliders I'm planning to use are the Accuride 18" Heavy-Duty Undermount Shelf/Pantry Slides - Model 301-2590-18. (http://www.thehardwarehut.com/catalog-product.php?p_ref=296545)   I neglected to mention that in my first post.

Regarding the mounting...  The studs are not 16" on center, the walls are not 90 degrees or parallel, and they are slightly cupped.    One option is using brackets (shown in prior pic).  Another, probably more secure option, is to extend the support 2X4's and mount them to the wall's corner 2x's.   See attached closeup.   This assumes that the support 2X4 can be flipped vertically (see pic) and still provide a good mounting surface for the slider flanges.    When looked at from the top, the slider flanges on the support 2X4 will probably be at an angle so that the piano slides smoothly out of the opening.

The piano weighs 75lbs.  With the shelf, I think it will be 80-82 lbs.   The 18" sliders have a 130lb load rating per pair (@50,000 cycles).   Given that the piano will only be pulled out for maintenance or connecting cables, the load rating should be more than adequate.

Any issues you can see for this approach?   Better options?  (I'm completely open for other options.)

Thanks,

Dan.

I'd use the Blum undermounts. I prefer how they attach to the sidewall.

Studs do not have to be 16" O.C. there are many holes in the Blums.

Tom

 
Dan Clark said:
Colonel Panic said:
That is a pretty long shelf to only be supported at the end. Since the sliders are only used occasionally I would install a cleat on the back wall to keep the shelf from sagging. I would need to be angled at the front so it won't catch on the back of the shelf as you slide it back in. You might be able to hang something on the center Elfa upright to accomplish this.

The other thing you could do is run skirt along the front of the shelf. This would do two things, give the shelf some lateral stiffness and hide the sliders.
Colonel,

Good points.   The cleat in the back may not be necessary because all of the weight will be on the four little feet, which are right over the slider.  That said, think I can get a nice straight 2X3, and glue and screw it to the back of the DP shelf.   It would not rest on the slider support boards.   Since most of the DP's weight is at the back, that should eliminate any residual sag.

I like the idea of a skirt on the front of the DP shelf.  A lot!   The only gotcha is that my legs need to go under that skirt in the center so it would have to be fairly short there, but deep on the ends to hide the slider and support 2X's.    Maybe a nice dark stain to match the ends of the DP.

New pic attached showing your changes.

Thanks,

Dan.

That should take care of any sag. I was thinking more of a curve on the front skirt but then I looked at you shelves again and your design matches the notch in your monitor shelf.

BTW, nice piano. I'm envious since I used to play all the woodwinds except the flute in my school daze. Now the only thing I can play is the stereo.  [tongue]
 
polarsea1 said:
I just installed 2 sets of that slide (18"), they go in fairly easily - screw the fixed portion down, slide them out, set the shelf down and screw it on from from the bottom. The mounting holes are slightly elongated to allow for some adjustment.

I bought mine from cabinetparts.com
Polarsea1,

I missed this post.  My applogies. 

The install should be fairly easy, but it has to be incredibly precise.  The issue I see with installing the fixed sized down is that I have no way of making them perfectly parallel since the walls can't be used as a reference (they are misaligned and cupped). 

Unless someone can see an issue or a better way, my plan is:

1. Temporarily install the slider to the slider support 2X4 with small screws.

2. Set the shelf on top of the sliders and, from below, mark where the flange will be.  This will be a rough measurement.

3. Deinstall the sliders, flip over the DP shelf, align the sliders precisely parallel to the DP shelf, and temporarily screw down DP shelf to the sliders.

4. Flip the DP shelf right side up, extend the slider all the way (my loving honey will be supporting it), and start screwing down the slider to the fixed slider support 2X4. 

5. At this point, I'll probably be adjusting and tweaking the DP shelf alignment to get it centered in the nook opening and ensure that it can open and close properly.

6. Hopefully at this point, the sliders and shelf will be aligned perfectly.  So I'll screw down the bottom flange to the support 2X4 with large permanent screws. 

7. After retesting centering, I'll install longer and larger screws from the bottom through the sliding portion of the flange into the DP shelf. 

8. If all is well, the DP can be placed on to the extended shelf and slid back in.  (Fingers crossed here.)

One reason that this should work is that the DP shelf will be made precisely as wide as the DP  or maybe a smidge wider.  With this shelf width, failure of alignment during install will scrape the shelf and not the DP.  (Hopefully)

To ensure that there is plenty of space to install the lateral support 2X, the DP shelf will be about 20 inches deep and extend behind the sliders.

On second thought, Kev's post (where he was obviously busting my chops  [smile]) gives me an idea.  I'm going to find a couple of pieces of very thin, slippery plastic (teflon?) and place them between the DP and the wall when sliding it in. 

Below is a pic of the slider and it's flanges.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Regards,

Dan.
 

Attachments

  • MusicNook3_Closeup.png
    MusicNook3_Closeup.png
    763.9 KB · Views: 200
Colonel Panic said:
Dan Clark said:
Colonel Panic said:
That is a pretty long shelf to only be supported at the end. Since the sliders are only used occasionally I would install a cleat on the back wall to keep the shelf from sagging. I would need to be angled at the front so it won't catch on the back of the shelf as you slide it back in. You might be able to hang something on the center Elfa upright to accomplish this.

The other thing you could do is run skirt along the front of the shelf. This would do two things, give the shelf some lateral stiffness and hide the sliders.
Colonel,

Good points.   The cleat in the back may not be necessary because all of the weight will be on the four little feet, which are right over the slider.  That said, think I can get a nice straight 2X3, and glue and screw it to the back of the DP shelf.   It would not rest on the slider support boards.   Since most of the DP's weight is at the back, that should eliminate any residual sag.

I like the idea of a skirt on the front of the DP shelf.  A lot!   The only gotcha is that my legs need to go under that skirt in the center so it would have to be fairly short there, but deep on the ends to hide the slider and support 2X's.    Maybe a nice dark stain to match the ends of the DP.

New pic attached showing your changes.

And thanks for the compliment about the piano.  For all it's features, I bought it because of the keybed.  The keys have a wood base covered in plastic like an acoustic piano and they are extremely long, about the same length as an acoustic grand.  That makes the feel pretty close to a grand piano.  And it's the cheapest available with that keybed.    Other pianos with that keybed start at $1,000 higher.

Thanks,

Dan.

That should take care of any sag. I was thinking more of a curve on the front skirt but then I looked at you shelves again and your design matches the notch in your monitor shelf.

BTW, nice piano. I'm envious since I used to play all the woodwinds except the flute in my school daze. Now the only thing I can play is the stereo.  [tongue]
Colonel,

I'd like to say the notch is planned, but it's purely functional.  I typically pull the bench out a bit, sit down, and then swing my legs into playing position under the piano.  So there needs to be plenty of "swing space".  

Regarding the notch in the first shelf above the piano, unfortunately that has to go.  Take a look at the pic of the DP and you'll see lots of pretty buttons and sliders on the top.  I probably won't use them much, but still need to get access to them.   The attached pic shows the new monitor shelf.

Regards,

Dan.
 

Attachments

  • MusicNook3.png
    MusicNook3.png
    1.2 MB · Views: 299
The plan is good I would use story sticks to align all the sliders and then transfer those measurement  to your supporting shelve.
 
BMH said:
The plan is good I would use story sticks to align all the sliders and then transfer those measurement  to your supporting shelve.
BMH,

Good tip.

Thanks,

Dan.
 
Back
Top