DF500 Initial Quality

[jcrowe1950]

Other than that...it's still all on Amazon. Just part of the new world we live in.

It's also partially on Festool. Most of their systainer inserts are not fit for shipping. Something they should have realized and adapted to many years ago considering how much business is done online and shipped by common carriers. I've sold a number of FT items over the years. Learning from my experience of receiving systainers with parts flown around I always stuffed empty space around tools with bubble wrap, air bags, foam etc. tightly until nothing is moving or rattling.

  This is an issue with Amazon, but also with Festool. The issue with Amazon is that Amazon is a huge, faceless corporation that will sell you Festool tools, but support is negligible. This is one reason to shop with a local Festool dealer, or even an online dealer that specializes in woodworking tools. With Amazon, if you don't know how to set up your MFT...good luck. With a local dealer, at least one worth its salt, you can get a detailed demo on the problems, or if you have an issue with the tool, you can simply return it in thirty days. There is no price break for shopping on Amazon for Festool and there is no inherent advantage in this case for shopping with Amazon.

  WRT, tools shipping directly to dealers from Festool with issues...yes it does occur. However, as a customer, you should never see that from a local dealer. Shipments from Festool to local dealers should be inspected and any issues addressed before the tools are stocked on the shelves. That's the way it works in the store where I work. If you have any issues with a local dealer or on online woodworking specialty dealer, the thirty day return process should be quick and painless. As always, YMMV and OALA, EHOATAS. 8)

 

[ChuckM]

I'd go one step further to suggest this is entirely Festool's fault. If a package is properly/reasonably designed for shipping, then subsequent issues coming out would belong to the merchant/delivery company. Not in this case as the loose parts are allowed to jump around -- for lack of a better word-- during transit.

A problem easy and not costly to solve if someone in the executive suite uses a bit of common sense.

 

[Cheese]

Give me a break guys...call a spade a spade but enough with this conspiracy theory thing.  You now sound like QAnon.

According to your thinking, the sun is responsible for bad weather because without the sun bad weather would never be able to foment.

 

[Lincoln]

I bought my Domino earlier this year and was also underwhelmed by the finish. Compared to my other two joinery tools, it was way, way behind. Does it affect use - no, I doubt it would cause any problems.
Like most, I find it a joy to use.
But, the DF500 costs AU$1700 and I expect a better standard of finish for that amount of coin.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I'd go one step further to suggest this is entirely Festool's fault.

Festools' toolboxes are made to be transported by tradesman all day, carried by hand or inside their vans. Generally speaking, it always works. The systainer system is one of the widest used forms of special transport boxes in Europe.

I think Festool is just not yet accustomed to the standards of North American delivery companies.



People go as far as saying "this is a trend" or "a daily occurence".

Yep, entirely Festools' fault.

 

[ChuckM]

I'd go one step further to suggest this is entirely Festool's fault.

Festools' toolboxes are made to be transported by tradesman all day, carried by hand or inside their vans. Generally speaking, it always works. The systainer system is one of the widest used forms of special transport boxes in Europe.

I think Festool is just not yet accustomed to the standards of North American delivery companies.

People go as far as saying "this is a trend" or "a daily occurence".

Yep, entirely Festools' fault.

Bill's observation: "The box was undamaged, but there was a lot of rattling inside."

If the box/content was badly damaged due to the merchant's/carrier's handling, Festool couldn't be faulted. The root of the problem that Bill shared here was poor packaging to start with -- that's, small and loose parts INSIDE the systainer were not properly secured, AND Bill's case wasn't an exception.

Yep, I'd fault Festool solely in Bill's case, not UPS, FEDEX or any courier/delivery merchant or Amazon. Calling a spade a spade means being willing to confront the fact, as unpleasant as it may be to some Festool supporters.

Here's my question: How hard or costly is it to properly store those accessories in the systainer so they don't dance around during transit? Common sense tells me it won't be too hard or cost-prohibitive. And I'm very confident that many woodworking problems we face day in and day out in our shops are harder to solve than this one.

 

[MikeGE]

Bill's observation: "The box was undamaged, but there was a lot of rattling inside."

I was in the UK earlier this year and in the last few days before flying out of Birmingham, I bought a Belfast sink from the nearby B&Q.  For those who don't know, a Belfast sink is a large lump of ceramic, with no moving parts.  I took it to a commerical shipper who repackaged the sink and shipped it to me via FedEx.  The sink arrived in Germany a few days later without a mark on any of the six sides of the box.  However, the sink was smashed to bits, but all of the extra packing kept the parts from sloshing around in the box.
Since the package was insured well, the owner of the shipping company went back to B&Q, bought another sink, shipped it to me using the same carrier, and the driver who delivered the first box was the same driver who delivered the second box.  The second sink arrived in perfect condition.
I have no idea what tender mercies the shippers inflicted on the first box to cause the content inside to crumble, but not leave an external mark.

 

[ChuckM]

I have no idea what tender mercies the shippers inflicted on the first box to cause the content inside to crumble, but not leave an external mark.

I had similar experiences -- twice some 15 years ago -- with an American office stationary vendor which sold me bookends (claws made of clad (?), heavy). Boxes had no visible damages or even scratches of any kind, but small chips or broken bits were found inside the bubbled boxes after they were opened. When a box with a heavy, breakable content was dropped flat on another flat surface, there might not be any damage done to the box itself.

In the end, we agreed that it was simply too unreliable to ship those heavy claws bookends. The reputable vendor. Levenger, let me keep the damaged bookends (two pairs, one was supposed to be the replacement), after refunding me. I still have them in my family room!

 

[Michael Kellough]

Festool could do better. Mafell does, but then the tools would cost even more.

Don’t buy Festools (the complete tool in ABS plastic Systainer) from Amazon.

They dont pack properly and they don’t provide any technical support
so they don’t deserve the higher margin provided to dealers by Festool pricing policy.

The only benefit of buying from Amazon is slightly faster shipping (maybe) but you’re gambling that what arrives will be in good condition. Not worth it in in my opinion.

 

[Bill Hayes]

I certainly appreciate all of your comments.  The videos of the careless FedEx & UPS deliveries are amazing.  In my case, I've never had that problem.  You can see in one of the attached pics, which is the pic the delivery driver took to prove delivery of this item, that they even place the package on a glass table we have there, mainly for Covid era pizza delivery.  This instance is a real outlier, I do not recall ever having to return something due to careless packing.  The other pics are of the 5 main shattered areas of the plastic tool tray.

I was speaking in jest about the old school style felt-lined wooden box, but this plastic tool holder is the flimsiest case I've seen on any tools. I have other cases from DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ridgid, even Craftsman, that while not as clever as the modular concept, are much better at actually protecting the tools, which I would think would be one of the important qualities of a case.  This one wasn't even good enough for the initial delivery, and this from what is seemingly the "best" tool manufacturer.

I'm an electrical engineer, and I work with a mechanical engineer who designs our products mechanicals, and the packaging they are shipped in.  Our products range in the $500 to $5000 range, not dissimilar to Festool products. It's not that hard or expensive to make a good shipping case, not when the product price point is in this range.  It's just takes a decision to deliver quality.

As to why I ordered from Amazon, it's really two reasons. One, convenience, they have free shipping, and my closest Festool dealer is 100 miles round trip.  In this case, when I made the decision to get the Domino system, I did call that dealer, but they had none on the shelf.  Second, I've never had this problem with damaged goods on delivery, and since my only other Festool product, so far, is my Kapex miter saw, which I did buy from that dealer, and was well packaged, and didn't involve any Systainer, I didn't realize the vulnerability of the Systainer packaging.  Live and learn.  So, I'm calling the dealer to order one, and returning this one to Amazon.

Thanks for all your comments.  This was my first question on this forum, wasn't sure if I'd even get a response.  This seems to be a very active group.  Thank you all.

 

[Bill Hayes]

One other bit of irony...

On the Amazon return instructions, they instructed me to pack the item carefully.  [tongue]

 

[Michael Kellough]

I think all Festool dealers cover the cost of shipping, to the customer anyway.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
It's just takes a decision to deliver quality.

Snip.

And in this particular case, it doesn't even cost an arm and a leg to fix a simple, recurring problem. Yes, do include the improvement cost in the product price IF that's the ultimate solution! The good opportunity to do that perhaps is when the next annual price adjustments come around. But first, a will to fix it needs to be there. [tongue] Cutting corners hurts everyone.

 

[RustE]

I think all Festool dealers cover the cost of shipping, to the customer anyway.

Agreed. Plenty of good dealers that do not charge for shipping on Festool items, even with small value orders.

 

[Birdhunter]

I ordered a set of tool bench legs from Amazon. They were made of 3/8" steel. One of the legs was severely bent. Of course, the shipping box was damaged. I took pictures of the box before moving it and of the damaged leg. I called UPS and got blown off. I called Amazon and they overnighted a replacement leg. My experience with UPS has been generally excellent, but they don't seem to handle large items well.

 

[Cheese]

Calling a spade a spade means being willing to confront the fact, as unpleasant as it may be to some Festool supporters.

Chuck, unfortunately you're missing the central point of this discussion. As Peter previously noted, these are not shipping containers but rather storage containers and as such, the design principles are vastly different.

The Systainers were designed to STORE...they were never designed to SHIP.

Check out this directly from the Tanos website.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

No where does it suggest that these Systainers are capable shipping containers because they were not designed for that purpose...they are containers, that's it, their life ends there.

If Amazon feels the need to repurpose them as shipping containers, then again it's on Amazon to do their do diligence and take care of business...put the onus of responsibility where it deserves to be.

 

[Doug S]

Here in the UK Festool have always pushed Systainers as shipping containers, on their website it clearly states if sending a tool to them which is contained within a Systainer there is no need for additional packaging.

Just pop a label on the Systainer and send it on it's way, I certainly wouldn't risk it!  [unsure]
https://www.festool.co.uk/service/hello-hotline/questions-about-full-repair#Postage&packaging

 

[grbmds]

I don't know if the machining quality of the DF550 sold today is different than that of the DF500 sold 5 years ago, but then I never paid attention to that. All I know is that the Domino is probably on the top of my list of favorites tools of all time. Joints are easy to make. The only problems I've had have been due to my errors. Occasionally I don't hold the machine straight on narrower edges. I occasionally get confused and put the mortises on the wrong side. I have mistakenly rested the 500 on the bench instead of making sure the fence is resting on the proper reference surface. Other than those mistakes, the Domino makes strong, easy to make joints in a variety of situations; some where I'd have a difficult time making standard mortises.

I agree it's not for the purist but, for end results it's the best investment I ever made in a tool. (I made a few others but it's up on the top of the list with those.)

 

[ChuckM]

The Systainers were designed to STORE...they were never designed to SHIP.

Why does Festool include a foam block to secure the DF500 in the systainer in the first place? That block is not needed for storage purposes. The weight of the machine itself is more than enough to hold the machine in its position on the tray for storage AND normal carrying and transport (by hand or in a vehicle).

Whether the info. Doug shared is accepted or not, Festool knew and expected the systainer to be shipped in an online/mail order transaction while it was doing the design of the storage case for the DF500. What about other Festool machines that are shipped in systainers? Are those systainers "Shipping" containers?

The point of discussion, I'm afraid, is not about the classification of the container (storage vs shipping), but about why not making the container suitable for regular shipping to a customer without damage to its content (loose parts in this case). Festool should love to hear feedback from customers who have had issues with their purchases; of course, it's their prerogative to act on it or not.

 

[Bill Hayes]

Perhaps I'm too new at buying handheld Festool products to understand the expectations.  In my experience with any other products, the box you buy the product in is packaged the same whether you buy it in a store, or order it online.  The item is usually secured with an appropriate material, sometimes temporary, such as styrofoam, that is discarded, sometimes with a more durable material for repeated use.  Either way, any ancillary items have their own little pockets to protect them and keep order.  These also serve to lower the possibility of them being forgotten during product packaging.

Ironically, the Systainer ad that Cheese displayed has a section called Presenting, which shows items neatly arrayed, and secured with foam packing.  It describes how Optimal Presentation is an important tool for a company, and that it provides high grade protection.  That's really all it takes in most instances, a bit of foam, but wasn't included in this case.  The attached pic shows approximately how things looked when I first opened the case.  Not much of a presentation.

Peter described how the products are shipped to dealers, and that some dealers add more packing to "avoid the hassle of complaints".  That sounds like an odd attitude, for a company that prides itself on being the best.  I can't think of any plausible reason for Festool not to add a bit of foam inside the Systainer to ensure the customer receives a consistent quality product.

Cheese notes that the Systainers were designed to "Store", not to "Ship".  But that's how the original tool is sold, in a Systainer.
The Systainer itself is not the problem.  The problem is the inserts, or lack thereof, to secure the tools and accessories.  Would you expect someone at Amazon to open the enclosure that a new product comes in and add extra foam?  Where else in the world of product manufacture and distribution would a distributor expect to have to do that?  That's just not normal.

Surely in the modern world, it's not reasonable expect everyone to personally go to a brick and mortar Festool dealer, which often takes a bit of a drive (100 miles in my case), to be gently handed their prized new tool.