DF700 vs. DF500

[johnyhuh]

But for me - the DF700 is a compliment to the DF500. Not an upgrade.

+1  [big grin]

+1  [big grin] [big grin]

 

[smorgasbord]

If Festool released a DF600 covering tenon sizes from 6mm to 10mm (x80mm), I'd sell my DF500 (weight: 7 lb) and get it, assuming its weight being 7 to 8 lb or so (DF700 is 11.4 lb).

Yeah, when I saw the numbering scheme that Festool was using my first thought was that they were allowing for (not necessarily planning for) an in-between tool.

For me, it's kind of mechanics socket sets. I mostly grab my ⅜" set that goes from 6mm to 19mm, but there are times I want either the ¼" set (5mm to 15mm) or the ½" set (10mm to 24mm) instead. And even though the ¼" set only goes two sizes smaller than the ⅜" (5.5mm and 5mm), the shallower sockets and shorter/lighter ratchet make a difference sometimes. And same for the ½" set - sometimes you need that extra leverage/beefiness.

Now, if I could afford or were somehow restricted to having just one set, I'd naturally choose the ⅜" since it would cover probably 90+% of what I do, and there are adapters to run other sockets.

What Festool has done is give us the equivalent of ¼" socket set and a ½" socket set. That makes it hard to choose when you can only have one.

What I think is going to be interesting is that when the patents expire and DeWalt or Bosch or Mafell can sell domino mortise making machines, what size(s) will they choose?  For instance, a middle-sized tool that can go down to 6mm and up to 12mm might be the sweet spot, even if plunge depth were restricted to 50mm or even 40mm. Of course, different woodworkers may have different sweet spots.

 

[mino]

...

I expect Festool to make a "refresh" of the DF500 either some time after competition comes with their versions. To get some more edge on the competition, possibly incorporating some addl. patented features for added value.

Either way, a DF500 gen 2 is -IMO- on the cards in the next 5 years or so.

DF700 is here to stay the same way the TS75 stood with us all those years while we are on a 3rd gen TS55. Too low-volume to warrant a refresh anytime soon.

 

[luvmytoolz]

...

DF700 is here to stay the same way the TS75 stood with us all those years while we are on a 3rd gen TS55. Too low-volume to warrant a refresh anytime soon.

I'd be curious on the sales stats for the DF700 (and the DF500), I suspect they may be a lot higher than most people would think. Hugely popular tool.

 

[Bertotti]

The equipment store I buy at had one for a couple months then I went on to get it and it was gone. They ordered a couple more and I got one and the other was gone in a couple of days. I think the TS75 is higher as well. They got three in and they were all gone in a couple of weeks, of course just before I went in for one!

 

[RussellS]

If Festool released a DF600 covering tenon sizes from 6mm to 10mm (x80mm), I'd sell my DF500 (weight: 7 lb) and get it, assuming its weight being 7 to 8 lb or so (DF700 is 11.4 lb).

Yeah, when I saw the numbering scheme that Festool was using my first thought was that they were allowing for (not necessarily planning for) an in-between tool.

For me, it's kind of mechanics socket sets. I mostly grab my ⅜" set that goes from 6mm to 19mm, but there are times I want either the ¼" set (5mm to 15mm) or the ½" set (10mm to 24mm) instead. And even though the ¼" set only goes two sizes smaller than the ⅜" (5.5mm and 5mm), the shallower sockets and shorter/lighter ratchet make a difference sometimes. And same for the ½" set - sometimes you need that extra leverage/beefiness.

Now, if I could afford or were somehow restricted to having just one set, I'd naturally choose the ⅜" since it would cover probably 90+% of what I do, and there are adapters to run other sockets.

What Festool has done is give us the equivalent of ¼" socket set and a ½" socket set. That makes it hard to choose when you can only have one.

What I think is going to be interesting is that when the patents expire and DeWalt or Bosch or Mafell can sell domino mortise making machines, what size(s) will they choose?  For instance, a middle-sized tool that can go down to 6mm and up to 12mm might be the sweet spot, even if plunge depth were restricted to 50mm or even 40mm. Of course, different woodworkers may have different sweet spots.

I like your socket set analogy.  Personally, I use the 1/4" socket the most.  Most of the bolts I work on are small.  And the small 1/4" ratchet is much easier to maneuver.  I of course also have 3/8" and 1/2" sockets too.  1/2" is rarely rarely rarely ever used.  I have a lot of 1/2" sockets but many have never ever touched a bolt head.  As for an intermediate Domino, I think a 6-12mm and 40 or 50mm depth would be a great intermediate tool.  Cover the best of both Dominoes.  6mm would work OK on 1/2" thick wood.  40 or 50mm depth mortises would make strong enough tables or doors.  Unless you are making a building, you don't need 70mm depth mortises of the 700.  A Domino 600 with 1/4" to 1/2" thick tenons (6-12mm) and 1 5/8" or 2" long tenons (40 or 50mm) would be the sweet spot for loose tenons.

Can't wait until Makita, Bosch, Milwaukee, Dewalt come out with a Domino 600 in a couple years!!!!!!!!!

 

[luvmytoolz]

Given the DF700 can do 8-14mm slots from 0mm to 70mm deep depending on the cutter, the only thing missing is the ability to do 4, 5, and 6mm slots, so a Seneca adaptor would be the best option to cover all bases if you really wanted the option but didn't want to spring for 2 machines, a proper Festool adaptor would be good, but I think as they'd be cutting their own lunch that one's unlikely.

I recently did some testing with my 500 and 700, and measured the slot widths as per below:

DF500    N            M            W
4mm      16.5        21.5        25
5mm      19          24          28.5
6mm      20          25.5        29.5
8mm      22          27          31.5
10mm  24          29          33.5

DF700    N            W
8mm      21.5        24.5
10mm  23.5        26.5
12mm  25.5        28.5
14mm  27.5        30.5

I plan on making some extra wide dominos in various sizes, as sometimes that would be quite handy as opposed to extra slots which may not always be practical. So it would be nice if the 700 had the same 3rd width option as the 500, which would bring the 14mm slot to 40mm wide for example.

 

[ChuckM]

For me, there has never been an issue of width or thickness with the DF500, but depth. I could always make mortises of whatever width/thickness by overlapping the cuts, and then use shop-made tenons of the desired width and thickness. But a simpler solution is to use double tenons or twin tenons depending on the orientation, or both if applicable.

So if a DF600 could not cut much deeper mortises than the DF500 already does, its added value would be minimal to me, and there would be no point for me to get it. 50mm deep is just 25mm on each mating side; even adding 10mm to the final depth (30mm on each side) wouldn't be good enough for my kind of needs.

So max 65mm/70mm milling depth for the DF600...or else.

Edit: 70mm refers to the total depth.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

For me, there has never been an issue of width with the DF500, but depth. I could always make mortises of whatever width by overlapping the cuts, and then use shop-made tenons of the desired width. But a simpler solution is to use double tenons or twin tenons depending on the orientation.

So if a DF600 could not cut much deeper mortises than the DF500 already does, its added value would be minimal to me, and there would be no point for me to get it. 50mm deep is just 25mm on each mating side; even adding 10mm to the final depth (30mm on each side) wouldn't be good enough for my kind of needs.

So max 65mm/70mm milling depth for the DF600...or else.

Agreed, at least mostly. I would be happy with 50mm.

It would actually be kind of cool see them make a bigger bit for the DF700 too, maybe 16mm?

I like the socket set analogy too.  I have gotten along with my minimal 3/8" drive set in the cabinet shop for a couple of years. I recently upgraded to the Festool socket and driver set. Coincidentally enough, it is all 1/4" and 1/2" drive. Same thing, hit both ends and let the overlap be, rather than a middle set.
As it was, I needed extremes both ways. I have been working on an old Whitney 177 table saw and required sockets larger than the 22mm I had, plus the longer ratchet. The 3/8" set has always been a bit overkill for the smaller end.

The equipment store I buy at had one for a couple months then I went on to get it and it was gone. They ordered a couple more and I got one and the other was gone in a couple of days. I think the TS75 is higher as well. They got three in and they were all gone in a couple of weeks, of course just before I went in for one!

I think you are right, to some degree anyway. I would imagine they sell more of the DF700 than most would think, but some of that has been driven by the recent shortages? TS75 and Vac Sys, too.
When things get perceived as "hard to get", people jump on all of the stock available sooner than they would have. This makes it worse.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

I recently did some testing with my 500 and 700, and measured the slot widths as per below:

DF500    N            M            W
4mm      16.5        21.5        25
5mm      19          24          28.5
6mm      20          25.5        29.5
8mm      22          27          31.5
10mm  24          29          33.5

Snip.

Some readings are slightly different from what is given in the user manual (add cutter's size to table):

[attachimg=1]

 

[mino]

...
I like the socket set analogy too.  I have gotten along with my minimal 3/8" drive set in the cabinet shop for a couple of years. I recently upgraded to the Festool socket and driver set. Coincidentally enough, it is all 1/4" and 1/2" drive. Same thing, hit both ends and let the overlap be, rather than a middle set.
As it was, I needed extremes both ways. I have been working on an old Whitney 177 table saw and required sockets larger than the 22mm I had, plus the longer ratchet. The 3/8" set has always been a bit overkill for the smaller end.
...

I think this has to do with the 1/4" set being in the same class as 1/4" hex bits, so is kinda an extension of that system.

E.g. I almost never use 1/4" ratchets yet I use the sockets widely. Either with a "screwdriver" handle or with a drill driver while my 1/4" ratchets collect dust.

For the 1/2", I pull it out only for heavy work, and then 1/2" is preferable to 3/8. As for "single set", well, I have 1/2" sockets all the way from 8mm to 40mm or so.

If my "main" set was 3/8, I would still need a 1/2" set as 3/8" is just too weak for the heavy work. Got one old 3/8" chinese set somewhere, not remember ever using it.

The whole 3/8" world is to me The Professional's space, where the reduced weight is worth it for the main set. And a secondary heavy 1/2" on hand is a non-concern.

====
I believe with the DF series it is the same. A "middle" option would be the tool of choice for Pros who KNOW their needs and can handle the very-small as well as very-big tasks that it could not handle via other means.

Still not sure it makes sense - what DF500 lacks is depth, and I am not sure they could achieve, say, 50mm depth without making the tool bulkier. I see more likely Festool releasing 6mm cutters for the DF700. We need to remember that even with the exclusivity, the DF series market is not that big to sustain three tools.

What would be practical, though, is a DF500 gen 2 that can handle, say, 40mm depth. Still keeping it far-enough from a DF700 but improving slightly to better cover the middle ground.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
Still not sure it makes sense - what DF500 lacks is depth, and I am not sure they could achieve, say, 50mm depth without making the tool bulkier.

Snip..]

I don't expect Festool to release another DF given the fact that the patent is to expire in a couple years. I'm pinning my hope on other manufacturers which may see a gap, and after 2024 produce a clone joiner that is not just an exact copy of the DF500 in terms of mortising capacity.

Look at Bosch's finger-saving saw that isn't an exact copy of SawStop.

 

[RussellS]

For me, there has never been an issue of width or thickness with the DF500, but depth. I could always make mortises of whatever width/thickness by overlapping the cuts, and then use shop-made tenons of the desired width and thickness. But a simpler solution is to use double tenons or twin tenons depending on the orientation, or both if applicable.

So if a DF600 could not cut much deeper mortises than the DF500 already does, its added value would be minimal to me, and there would be no point for me to get it. 50mm deep is just 25mm on each mating side; even adding 10mm to the final depth (30mm on each side) wouldn't be good enough for my kind of needs.

So max 65mm/70mm milling depth for the DF600...or else.

Edit: 70mm refers to the total depth.

The current DF500 cuts 28mm depth in each piece of wood.  56mm total depth.  Thus maximum 50mm Domino loose tenons.  The 500 gives you a little slop for the extra glue at the bottom of the mortise.
The current DF700 cuts 70mm depth in each piece of wood.  140mm total depth.  Thus maximum 140mm Domino loose tenons.

Currently Festool sells the 8mm Domino loose tenons in 40, 50, 80, 100mm total lengths.
Currently Festool sells the 10mm Domino loose tenons in 50, 80, 100mm total lengths.
The 12 and 14mm Dominoes come in 100 and 140mm total lengths.  And the 14 also comes in 75mm total length too.  Odd.
I am ignoring the 750mm lengths of tenon stock that you can cut to any length you want.  Only looking at ready to use Domino lengths.

So Festool is already making the Dominoes to handle a medium machine that can cut 40 or 50mm depth cuts.  Thus total loose tenons of 80 or 100mm.

You said "even adding 10mm to the final depth (30mm on each side) wouldn't be good enough for my kind of needs."
The hypothesis stated previously was a medium Domino cutting 40 or 50mm depths.  Totals of 80 or 100mm.  Currently the DF500 cuts depth of 28mm for total Domino length of 50mm.  The medium Dominoes suggested previously would add an extra 12 or 22mm of depth.  Total lengths would increase from 50mm Domino on the DF500 to 80 or 100mm on the imagined medium Domino.  You would go from a 1 inch (25mm) Domino in each piece of wood to a 1 5/8" (40mm) or 2" (50mm) Domino in each piece of wood.  Right in the middle of the 70mm (2.75") DF700 and the 50mm (1") DF500.

Will Festool do this medium Domino?  Probably not since they already have both extremes covered with the 500 and 700.  But it sure seems like a perfect sweet spot for Makita, Bosch, Dewalt, Milwaukee when the patents expire.

 

[smorgasbord]

Given the DF700 can do 8-14mm slots from 0mm to 70mm deep depending on the cutter, the only thing missing is the ability to do 4, 5, and 6mm slots, so a Seneca adaptor would be the best option to cover all bases if you really wanted the option but didn't want to spring for 2 machines, a proper Festool adaptor would be good, but I think as they'd be cutting their own lunch that one's unlikely.

I own the DF700 and the Seneca adapter. I bought both the DF500 and DF700 domino sets, so that gave me a full set of cutters (actually some overlap).

Note that the RPMs of the DF500 and DF700 are different. The DF700 rotates more slowly, which makes sense considering it's turning larger diameter bits. So when you mount the smaller diameter cutters on the DF700, you should take the plunge more slowly than you would otherwise.

I do agree that doubling up dominos can help with strength, but I also believe that, like you would do with true mortise and tenon joints, for real strength you often want to do deeper than the DF500 can do, especially if you're using 8mm or 10mm dominos. For most of my work, that's a real advantage for the DF700, which is why, again, I think a DF600 that didn't support the 4mm or 5mm sizes but add the 12mm, and could plunge 50mm deep would be great. Maybe some caveat about not plunging 50mm deep with the 6mm bit, or design the bit with some kind of depth stop at 20mm.

 

[leakyroof]

I bought my 500 first as it was the only size available, but actually kept running into wanting a larger version of it over the years. Then the 700 arrived. I bought it, and while yes, it would not be fun to have to do thin material with it all the time, it sure is nice to have its different ergonomics and larger capacity of cutting and depth.
Regarding any Domino 500 Version 2.0, it will be interesting to see what is shown whenever it finally arrives in the coming years.
About the only thing I don't like on my 500 is the spring loaded alignment tabs/'fingers'. I'd like to be able to lock them out at times when doing a longish mortise. I've taped them closed a few times with Painters tape, so there's that method. [scratch chin]

 

[ChuckM]

You can lock the paddles away with an Allen key. The user manual covers that step.
[attachimg=1]

 

[leakyroof]

You can lock the paddles away with an Allen key. The user manual covers that step.
[attachimg=1]

I missed that step. Thanks for the picture and info!!!

 

[smorgasbord]

Found this new video on YouTube:

If you can ignore the crude jokes, it actually presents a good case for which one to get.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I think the case is to get both! ;-)

Seriously though, how impressive is the chair at the end?

 

[Bertotti]

Found this new video on YouTube:

If you can ignore the crude jokes, it actually presents a good case for which one to get.

That was hilarious! But also quite informative and that chair is very cool!