did I mention I love censorship?

[Chris Hughes]

          Thanks Alanz and Matt.  How often in a day do we have an opportunity to chat with our friends?  After family and carpentry politics is my favorite thing to talk about.  Now I have forum monitors shutting down our discussion for reason that are unclear to me. 
            I have noticed that the bulk of the political discussion was posted by people that post on many topics, frequently. Meaning to me that that demographic uses this forum for general entertainment, not just a repository of info on all things Festool.  I know that is the way I use this forum. 
            I have learned a ton about my equipment and when I can shed some light on something I've seen before I'm all in.  But if I'm to be restrained in civil discourse and limited to only what some moderator thinks is appropriate because some thin skinned voyeurs can't stand the subject then whats the point. 
              I think a big part of our nation's problem is the lack of discourse.  We can't say what we think in civil terms because someone might take offense even in a civil discussion.  The key here is civility!  If you don't like the conversation say so.  Don't go behind the conversation and complain about the content.  Another choice could be to just ignore the conversation, not only do you have to read the subject line, click on it, but then read enough to be offended.  C Hughes

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Chris,

There are just a lot of people who like to go through life being offended these days because in our politically correct world it gives them the power to not have to hear anything they don't agree with or don't like.  Where in the Constitution does it say that one has the right to go through life without being offended?
Many things offend me including cheap and poor quality tools....

But you will never have to face these accusers because they will hide in the shadows and behind the "rules" and ask others to do their bidding.
Unfortunately that is the world we have to deal with and live in today...

Notorious T.O.D.

 

[vteknical]

I agree the thread was kept civil and mutually respectful despite some mis-understanding.  

Just so we are perfectly clear and transparent, I openly posted my discontent and quickly moved on, isn't that what you do in a civilized discussion.

 

[Chris Hughes]

  Not me Brother.  

 

[Chris Hughes]

V,
      Yes.  I appreciate all civil dicord.  Some do not.
                                                                                C Hughes

 

[alanz]

I had written a thoughtful response to this thread, but decided not to post it.

Self moderation.

Edit:  One little thing I should mention is that I've had no contact with Matt at all, our comments are totally independent.

 

[Chris Hughes]

Alanz,
                  I understand Matt's position on this subject.  He is somewhat responsible for this rabble.  Your's and whoever complained about the thread that went political are odd to me.  Again, this is about talking in civil terms about what we want to without getting shut down.  On this site we have dealt with members thats only apparent purpose was to start trouble.  Most of us kept our heads and Matt gave the offenders their chances, but in the end they are no longer here to take away from the generally friendly posting.
                    I glad you exercised your right to self-moderate now let us do the same.  In all due respect owed, thats all I ask for.                                                         
                                                                    Keep it Real, Peace Out, and Super Green,
                                                                                                  C Hughes

 

[nickao]

Holy crap I skip a few days and my thread gets closed? Guys let me restate my initial point. 150 million dollars at this particular time and even a party at all was not needed. In this current state of economic distress my point was Obama would have won over quite a few people if he would have canceled and directed the money to the home foreclosure crisis directly.

Who ever complained to Matthew, get over it it was an OFF topic.

My kids are Asian Indian, Black in skin color, I took NO offense from the actual thread, so who ever complained ask yourselves do you have black kids, if not you had no right to get offended, I did not. Certain people just made themselves look racist so what, now we know. Obviously the people who complained to Matthew do not know many Hispanics, Blacks and Indians because if they if they did  they would know the minorities hate people that will not let them speak their minds. We heard some border racist remarks then the thread get closed, do you get what I am saying.

All closing the thread down did was protect people from putting their foots in their mouth and showing their true colors. I re-read the posts. NOTHING here in the actual posts is worthy of closing the thread, not direct attacks, threats or calling names. I suspect it is the complaints that Matthew reacted to and not the actual posts. Which will always be wrong  to me.

I agree the thread got WAY off my point,  but it was a healthy discussion and now I feel like I am under Taliban rule. I am so miffed.

Matthew just go to many other forums policy of no off topic discussion at all and anything non tool related is deleted. Delete the way off topic entirely. I actually have no problem with that.You just picked and chose and that is NOT right. Heck I am totally and completely offended that anyone ever say they do not need a table saw. I am tired of hearing it, thats blasphemy, so please delete the threads that deal with eliminating a table saw as I am so offended. My table saw is one of my best friends and I do not like this talk about getting rid of my friend and killing him off. To me that makes as much sense as not letting the thread run its course.

 

[John Stevens]

I also enjoy political discussions.

But I consider it a really bad habit, just for myself.  That's because, after I'm done venting or preaching, I always regret it.  My post to the "inauguration" thread is no exception, no need to be sarcastic like that.

Politically, I think private property rights are every bit as important as "free speech."  Matthew owns this domain, he created the concept of a Festool owner's group, he does all the work necessary to keep this site running, he allows us to come here and use it as a matter of his generosity.  It's not up to me to tell him what to do with his generosity.

Matthew is very clear about the purpose of this domain:  "discussions and multimedia zone for Festool tools."  If I think Matthew is unreasonable in the way he exercises his judgment on what subjects he allows here--even in the "Way Off-Topic" forum--then I'm free to take my political comments elsewhere, or stop posting here entirely, or start up my own competing internet site.  There are plenty of alternative avenues for "free speech" on the internet.

Regards,

John

 

[sw1211]

Not to mention the balancing act Matthew has to do to try and keep the majority happy.  If he received > 30 complaints, then I'm sure he felt compelled to do something.  Personally, I don't know why anyone would complain about anything.  If a topic offends you, don't read it, seems simple enough.  When did people become so thin skinned and easily offended, sorry if I offended anyone about being easily offended.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Afternoon,
What we're talking about here is whether or not a discussion should be moderated, and if so, how to do it.  That's a perfectly relevant discussion, and I'm definitely interested in hearing what people have to say.  It's relevant because what we discuss has implications for other general discussions.  That is, as long as we can discuss it in a constructive manner.

One thing to make clear: there is no censorship in this forum.  If that were the case, the political discussions would simply be deleted without comment.

It's not censorship, it's balance.

There's a sizable number of people who want this forum to be just about tools.  These are active and respectable members.

There's a sizable number of members who believe the "off-topic" zone should be totally uncontrolled.  These are also active and respectable members.

Whatever side you're on regarding this issue, take a moment to consider this simple point: neither side is "wrong" or "right."

Then there's me, trying to make sure the wishes of both camps of active and respectable members are met.

My general rule: if the discussion is overtly offensive I delete it without comment.  But most of the problematic discussions fall into a gray zone (they aren't offensive, and yet they do cause problems).  In those cases, my goal is to let people speak and yet keep the discussion from getting out of control.  What I have chosen to do is let such a discussion run for a certain amount of time, then close it.

It's not a perfect solution, and I probably end up getting both sides slightly upset.  But to me, that's better than one or the other side being totally upset!

Again, it's not censorship.  It's balance.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Chris Hughes]

  Matt,
          As I've said in this thread, I understand your position and empathize for you.  In a sense we are all customers here, and as we all have a similar value to you seeking a middle ground is important to you.  Obviously I'm in the camp that would like to use this forum for general entertainment and talk about whatever we like as long as it is polite. 
          My question is this, "where do we draw the line, sports, nonfestool tools and apps., hand tools?"  I'm not trying to be difficult here I'm trying to make a point to my fellow Festooligans.  Nick is offended by a thread regarding; Eliminating a Table Saw.  (I've always thought that kid was a little thinskinned.  I have thought to complain about his long windedness more than once.) 
            If something rubs me wrong, I go sulk for a little while then write something passive aggressive and everthing is OK.  So what I'm saying to my little shrinking violets that complain about content without being a part of the dialog, "Man up!".(unless your a gal then I'm not sure what the proper corresponding phase would be, sorry.)
                                                                                          C Hughes

 

[alanz]

I'm guessing and hoping that Nick was being facetious about being offended by the tablesaw discussion.
It's obviously an on-topic discussion about supplementing/supplanting other tools with Festool equipment.
He's an active participant in that thread and is adding significant value.

 

[Chris Hughes]

I would think so.  What topic is that thread under?    C hughes

 

[alanz]

Chris,

It's under the Festools and Accessories category

 

[Chris Hughes]

              It was a rhetorical question illustrating that there are many categories that we use to communitate any ideas.  This is the "off-topic" area where we chat about other things of interest, say, politics.  I hope everybody gets the point.
                                                                                            C Hughes
             

 

[Daviddubya]

I'd like to offer a suggestion.  Implement this rule, which is one part of the Terms of Service at another, very popular woodworking forum, Sawmill Creek:

"All members shall abstain from engaging in religious or political debate."

Even in the Off Topic area, threads or posts that contain religious or political debate are simply not allowed, and are deleted by the moderators.

 

[nickao]

Yes I agree with that Daviddubya!

If some threads are left open and some are closed this balance thing is totally unfair becasue some discussions on politics and religion are allowed and some are not. We should be adult enough to accept them all, but cutting some out is just not right so get rid of them all.

 

[polarsea1]

I'd also vote for no religious or political threads.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Morning,
Thank you to everyone here for discussing this in a professional manner.

Generally, I hesitate to enforce rules.  Ironically, in certain circumstances, trying to let things be wide open ends up requiring more rules.  Go figure.  (Then again, managing a forum has revealed many ironies, but we'll save that for another discussion).

When this forum was established, I wrote up a set of rules, which you can find here: Rules and Guidelines for Forum Posts.

The message behind these rules, as you can see, is more or less, "I trust members to make the right decisions."  Even with subjects that are potentially offensive, I know it is always possible to have a discussion that works.  But it's hard (impossible actually) to make rules that define exactly how to do that.

In addition to a place to discuss tools and woodworking, I've always seen this forum as an experiment in self-moderation.  For the most part, I believe this forum has proved that, with carefully measured administration, and the right community, a forum can run this way.

With that said, over the past couple of years I've had lengthy discussions offline with several members about the rules.  People often call for more specificity, and stricter enforcement.  With great hesitation, I'm prepared to change rule #5 to specifically disallow political and religious discussions.

Stay in touch,
Matthew