Do we have too many tools?

[bobfog]

Ok, so an update of today's events.

We each installed the boxes we made yesterday, into the recesses.

Halfway between the top and bottom of the boxes required some small screw-in shelve supports to support a glass shelf. Both my coworker and I set about installing them before installing the boxes into the recesses.

Simple operation, by some means measure half the height of each box and install the four supports at the same height for the glass shelf to rest on. I did this by making a small "story-stick" out of 1" scrap and used this as a jig to drill through each hole in the same place, my colleague simply measured each individual one with his tape measure (whilst giving me a look of "oh god he's overcomplicating this again")

Anyway we finish installing the shelf supports and offer up the boxes into the recesses and spend the day installing and trimming them out, all goes well for both of us. However right at the end of the day I hear some huffing and puffing from across the room, we've both finished and all that's left is my colleague has to simply place the glass shelves on top of the supports and the job's a good 'un.

However, it seems that where my colleagues boxes weren't quite square and of a slight parallelogram shape, when he forced them into the recesses and forced them back into square/plumb, his shelf supports (that you remember we drilled and fixed before installing the boxes) are now slightly out of alignment with each other so the glass shelf in his boxes are now slightly rocking like a see-saw. 

So maybe, today/yesterday was a lesson in the tortoise and the hare.

As to some of the points made, I guess maybe a compromise would have been for me to just use my tracksaw and not bother with the dominos, but in hindsight I think my end result justified the means.

 

[waho6o9]

Good job bobfog and thanks for the update.

 

[Laminator]

Great update!  Now you are finished, and He's hoping he is...

 

[Scorpion]

And he used that 20 minutes cursing and moaning about his cattywampus shelves and then every minute beyond, when he's trying to figure out a hack to make it work, you'll be done and...on to the next job.

 

[Holmz]

Ok, so an update of today's events.

We each installed the boxes we made yesterday, into the recesses.

Halfway between the top and bottom of the boxes required some small screw-in shelve supports to support a glass shelf. Both my coworker and I set about installing them before installing the boxes into the recesses.

Simple operation, by some means measure half the height of each box and install the four supports at the same height for the glass shelf to rest on. I did this by making a small "story-stick" out of 1" scrap and used this as a jig to drill through each hole in the same place, my colleague simply measured each individual one with his tape measure (whilst giving me a look of "oh god he's overcomplicating this again")

Anyway we finish installing the shelf supports and offer up the boxes into the recesses and spend the day installing and trimming them out, all goes well for both of us. However right at the end of the day I hear some huffing and puffing from across the room, we've both finished and all that's left is my colleague has to simply place the glass shelves on top of the supports and the job's a good 'un.

However, it seems that where my colleagues boxes weren't quite square and of a slight parallelogram shape, when he forced them into the recesses and forced them back into square/plumb, his shelf supports (that you remember we drilled and fixed before installing the boxes) are now slightly out of alignment with each other so the glass shelf in his boxes are now slightly rocking like a see-saw. 

So maybe, today/yesterday was a lesson in the tortoise and the hare.

As to some of the points made, I guess maybe a compromise would have been for me to just use my tracksaw and not bother with the dominos, but in hindsight I think my end result justified the means.

And you can take pride in your work, although I suspect you always do...  [wink]

Maybe he did have a point to prove, but it is still an interesting point.

I'm not dismissing his point, merely stating that it's possible it wasn't a fair time comparison.
...

He was correct in that he could the wood faster. [cool]
But I think that the "time comparison" was equalized today towards the end, when it went pear shaped.  [embarassed]

[member=60286]bobfog[/member]  The question now is... "Does he still seem as smug?"

I would not have used my Domino, but I do not have enough experience yet with the Zeta-P2 to be fast. But it is nice to be able to put my stuff together with the ClampX, and take it apart 'when slowing working my way through' my work.
However if you are pretty skilled and comfortable with the Domino, then I can see no good reason not to use it. It would make for a more consistent product...

Ideally (timewise) I suspect that the Lamello-Tenso and their Divario may be the fastest. I am a beginner on both the Zeta and the Domino, but I am certainly way faster on sheet goods with the Zeta. And I need to decide if I should even keep the Domino.

 

[Stone Message]

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]

My aim with the woodworking injuries video is to help people but not to interfere.

I have a friend of mine staying this weekend - he is from Darwin too.

Peter

 

[Holmz]

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]

My aim with the woodworking injuries video is to help people but not to interfere.

I have a friend of mine staying this weekend - he is from Darwin too.

Peter

No worries [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member]
I kind of knee jerked at the injury/liability disclaimer part.
So thanks again for being a gentleman, and enjoy your weekend.

I am ~4 traffic lights south of your friend, and some unlimited speed limit roads.
Those roads also require some 'attention during use' like most power tools also benefit from [embarassed]

 

[clark_fork]

1. I follow the advice of my grandmother: "What's the good of it?" I laugh at the some of the attempts by the WP One Time Tool scheme to separate us from our money. So yes some tools are ridiculous and some have tool clutter. I have tool clutter.

2. Dust and noise: I fear dust and noise. I prefer my vacuumed connected Track Saw over a dust spewing Skill Saw. I want a quieter tool over a screamer.

3. The triangle: Skill, Knowledge and Attitude. You might be able from your skill with tools and knowledge of short cuts  work fast but if you don't really believe in a world that is straight, smooth and square, then the finished product just won't "measure" up.

4. Fast, Good or Cheap, you get two out of three is rarely a good business plan.

 

[GhostFist]

The deciding factor is the tolerances allowed for the project. is it a rough piece hidden behind stuff? Or is it a pedestal for the popes funny hat? That's the deciding factor for what tools to use. Ideally you want to complete a job to what ever tolerances with as few tools as possible.

I also factor in finishes. In my line of work, we have a separate department that handles applying finishes. As and example, a few weeks back I had a rush order for 4 mdf cubes that were to be finished high gloss black (lacquer).  I beveled the edges with my tracksaw  to conceal the mdf edges glued and snapped together  with my zeta and some tenso. Paint was able to immediately start finishing the product without filling any holes. mitered joints were seamless. This process took me more time than it would have if I butt joined and pinned together with 18g as I've seen my peers do, but it saved time for paint and you could have stood on the assembled cubes as the glue was drying.

In your case, your buddies project took him more time to muck with in the end game for an inferior product so who's laughing now?

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

The thing with specialty tools, is that you don't always need them till you really need them, and then there is a high chance any other way to do the job will take significantly longer, and/or give far less satisfactory results. In a lot of cases the specialty tools may not always be readily available locally, or if they are available locally it may require a lot of research or knowledge of local suppliers to figure out who would have it so you don't have to wait for one to be shipped to you.

The other issue with specialty tools, is you don't know the full extent of what a tool can do, and how quickly or easily it can do it, unless you've used a tool to a certain extent, which either means you have to buy the tool and necessary attachments and consumables, or you have to know someone who has the tool, who would trust you enough to be willing to loan you the tool and extensivly test the tool. Since a lot of specialty tools can be very expensive trying to borrow one might not be the easiest situation to arrange, which can lead to having to purchase the tools to really try them.

 

[Kev]

This thread is thought provoking. Maybe a better question would be ...

"Do we perform more steps to complete a given job than is necessary, simply to justify our tool purchases?"

I expect many of us have more tools than we "need" ... but need v's want is present in everything.

When you're uncertain of the job you'll be performing tomorrow or next week, you need to be prepared with tools and practiced skill. This comes into the equation of being ready to work and potentially offering a differentiated service.

 

[w802h]

A lot of good things have been said about pride in workmanship and kudos to the OP for keeping an open mind, examining his process.  I usually work alone,  in part so that I can focus on delivering a superior product, but I've learned a lot in the past year from a pair of women who work closely on a propety mangement gig.  These women would put their relationship as a team first and work together to get the best results.  Unless this guy is directly responsible for the budget, it's really more about working with some one who is insecure, threatened, or jealous of your skills and tools. 

No easy answers hear.  Perhaps you offer to let the other guy use your tools when you are working side by side.  Maybe you find a way to compliment him on something else or let him win - yes you are faster, confidant in your own course of action.  Be the bigger person. 

Although conjecture, the aforementioned women would have assembled the pieces together with one person holding the pieces square and the other fastening.  In the end, the project would be done together with a consistant result.  Working closely, you'd be able to catch up on each others kids and the new tool (sub clothing) store. 

 

[ccarrolladams]

Back in January 2006 when I bought my first Festools (TS55, OF1010, CT22) I already had a storage unit filled with the hand electrical tools from a cabinet shop I closed in 1996. The day I bought the TS55 I was actually shopping for a large slider table saw. What I realized was using the guide rail I would save a lot of space.

As business increased in 2006 I began renting more space in shops belonging to friends, so I came to see the benefits of CNC routers and pressure beam saws. I kept adding Festools because I found them less frustrating because they stayed calibrated much longer than traditional brands, and gave improved cut quality.

By mid 2009 I had hired my core group of master cabinet makers. Most already owned Kapex and TS55. Together we decided what equipment we wanted in our own shop. Once that was decided I tasked my long-time Realtor with finding me a building of the appropriate size and layout. Before that building entered escrow I placed the order for all the large fixed machines. I also started buying-up used CT22 which became available because the CT26 was about to reach the USA.

At that time I owned at least one each of all the 2010 Festools. Despite the beam and slider saw we still use TS55 for large sheet material miter and bevel cuts, largely because we all want to retain hand skill. People are right in that you need to practice use of some Festools, so it is best to have done that prior to a deadline.

In a multi-employee shop it is cost-saving to have enough of the same tool, so they can be set up differently. For example we use the OF1010 for many tasks. Therefore I keep at least one set up to drill shelf-pin hole; another to trim thick edging; another for freehand routing. For thinner banding I keep one each MFK700 set up 0, 1.5 degree and vertical. This saves time which saves a lot of money and reduces frustration.

We have always been happy with TS55, but decided to buy 2 TS55R to really try them. Now we buy new TS55R as needed. In the shop I find cordless tools generally unnecessary, but several of my folks prefer them. I have bought each of us a personal CSX. That is my go-to driver for delicate cabinet screws, yet I prefer a corded drill for making holes. In the shop we are never far from electrical outlets. My installers use many cordless Festools.

When you earn your living with tools I find quality and dependability are far more important than saving a little on the purchase price.

 

[jmbfestool]

This thread is thought provoking. Maybe a better question would be ...

"Do we perform more steps to complete a given job than is necessary, simply to justify our tool purchases?"

I expect many of us have more tools than we "need" ... but need v's want is present in everything.

When you're uncertain of the job you'll be performing tomorrow or next week, you need to be prepared with tools and practiced skill. This comes into the equation of being ready to work and potentially offering a differentiated service.

I know I have a few tools one might say to many.  Your last point about being uncertain of the job and what you might need is my reason for having more tools.  I even have tools which are not even asociated with my line of work but can help in my line of work.  Example the arbotech cutter, Sthil saw, radial arm tile cutter, belle mixer , trowels etc  i have pretty much all the tools brick layers and plasters and tilers have.  Yet most brick layers hardly have enough tools in their own trade.    This is because I hate doing a job knowing this can be done better and/or quicker if I had tool X. 

Your first part about performing more steps to justify your tools would be a poor way of justifying tool purchases.  Even knowing I have a tool which can do the job I wont use it unless I believe it either speeds up the job or improves the job or does both.  If those boxes are not ticked the tool stays in the box.

 

[glass1]

Yuck. Mdf. Formaldyde. If you used your dust extractor at least you had less exposure to the nasty dust. Do screws hold well in mdf?

 

[GhostFist]

Screws are crap in mdf. I can get dust free routing with festool routers and the right set up  and cutting with my mt55 and ct26 is super clean.

 

[bobfog]

Screws are crap in mdf. I can get dust free routing with festool routers and the right set up  and cutting with my mt55 and ct26 is super clean.

Depends what screws you use, coarse threads with a pilot hole, hold fine, especially if you only need them to clamp while glue dries and the piece is stationary.

Though I wouldn't use screws as the sole joining method without glue on something mobile or receives anything more than a few KG of stress.

 

[mwahaha]

Screws are fine in mdf.

As long as the mdf is 18mm or thicker, the screw is on the center line of the mdf and it has been properly pilot holed, you will struggle to get them to fail.

They don't do as well when the mdf is 16mm or thinner and if the panel is not very wide (100mm or less) then the mdf can split down the middle where the screws are.

Every kitchen I have ever installed has "just" been screwed together. Many of the modern ones I have demolished that have been done properly and been screwed together have been a real pain to get apart when I haven't been able to get at some screws because they are hidden behind something that is not being demolished.

 

[glass1]

If someone offered to remove my kitchen and install a new one made of mdf for free I would still refuse to have such a material in my house. Its ironic but silica born disease is on the rise among carpenters in the usa and more and more of the interiors of the super rich houses I work on are lining there homes with mdf from cabinets to wainscoting. I guess the rich can afford the cancer treatments from all the outgasing.

 

[waho6o9]

Conformat screws were designed for  MDF. YMMV

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