Do you miss your tablesaw?

[ChuckS]

I wonder what Festool’s liability lawyers would say about that operation.

Their advice: Get a SawStop!

 

[smorgasbord]

A while back, I made this hollowed out cove cut for a pencil tray.  It was pretty straightforward, though I had to make a couple of sample cuts to get the right radius. 

I would not know how to do this with a track saw.

I personally wouldn't even consider tablesaw coving in my decision. One could always use a router bit to cove instead, which might even save time considering cleanup of the tablesaw cut. And my tablesaw has a built-in riving knife, which has to be removed to cove, and it's a bit of trial and error to setup the clamped angled fences as well.

 

[Michael Kellough]

That’s akin to teaching a race horse to run on its hind legs.  It can be done, but …

A quicker way to cut coves or dadoes or whatever a table saw can do with a track saw is to mount the track saw upside down on a plywood top, and use it like a table saw!

Many carpenters in Asia do exactly that in reno projects with their circular saws.
[attachimg=1]

My first “table saw” was a Sears Craftsman 7-1/4” circular saw mounted upside down under a sheet of 1/2” plywood. February 1978. Had to draw lines on the surface of the ply to register the “fence” parallel to the blade, but it got the job done.

 

[ChuckS]

1978! That's when I finished college, and it never crossed my mind that I'd take up woodworking as a hobby. Hobbies among my buddies in those days were car tune-ups, parties, and parties!

 

[derekcohen]

A glue line rip off the slider is possible but rarely or never used before glue up since I assume that a finishing pass with a jointer plane is necessary.











I could not imagine the bandsaw reaching this level of precision.

Resawing Maple on the bandsaw. This is good as it gets. Good but not good enough.



Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Michael Kellough]

In one or two of the above posts the terms resawing and ripping got conflated.

As was pointed out above the possibility of wood movement after sawing means no method is always final.

 

[mino]

In one or two of the above posts the terms resawing and ripping got conflated.

As was pointed out above the possibility of wood movement after sawing means no method is always final.

Not necessarily. What I learned to do /with a tracksaw/ is to cut twice - first a relatively fast "rough" cut, about 3 mm off the planned cut. Both sides.

Then re-cut, removing the last 3mm (needs to be 3mm, so is more than blade width for the blade to not deflect during the final cut). Any tension released by the last 3mm removed is unlikely to have a measurable effect.

I have actually learned to do this even with narrow plywood rips anytime I demand precision. I have found that even a strip of, say, 200mm-wide plywood can have sufficient internal tension to actually bend like raw wood.

Wastes a bit of a material, but with no jointer /and no jointer cost/ it is a pretty reliable way to get true straight pieces.

Once made a 1 meter long "straight edge" out of a 40mm wide strip of birch ply this way. 5 years down the line, that "straight edge" is still as good as it gets. Accuracy being limited only by the softness of the material interface.

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=61254]mino[/member] that’s what I do too and it proves the point that one cut is not necessarily final no matter the means.

 

[Mini Me]

I am of the view that Festool designed the track saw for on site rough carpentry work, mark the timber put the track down close enough and cut. When we started to use it for more detailed work it became apparent that the precision needed was very hard to achieve and all the after market accessories began to appear including some from Festool. I first used one not long after it appeared on the market and getting any sort of precision just was not worth the trouble, I now have a slider.

 

[ChuckS]

Snip. all the after market accessories began to appear including some from Festool. Snip.

If one adds up the costs of those accessories including some fancy ones (not to mention the time to learn to use them well for the kind of precision/accuracy they promise or not promise), plus clamps, hold-downs, workarounds, gadgets, all sorts of fixed or mobile MFT tables, the need to supplement their use with a thickness planer or router for certain tasks, etc., it's fair to say that track saws are never meant to replace a decent table saw or slider. My ex-fellow colleague as replaced his table saw with a Festool track saw, but he no longer does some of the things that he used to do on the table saw. His sawing needs are different now.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I first bought the guides to use with the original AP55 saw I think the model was, to cut down panels and doors, and never noticed any inaccuracy. It always cut precisely where I marked.

It made hanging doors unbelievably easy.

 

[mino]

I am of the view that Festool designed the track saw for on site rough carpentry work, mark the timber put the track down close enough and cut. When we started to use it for more detailed work it became apparent that the precision needed was very hard to achieve and all the after market accessories began to appear including some from Festool. I first used one not long after it appeared on the market and getting any sort of precision just was not worth the trouble, I now have a slider.

Do not want to argue much, so will try to be short:

The (Festool) tracksaw (precise name translation is "plunge saw" actually) was NEVER a "rough carpentry tool". Period.

"Die Tauchsäge" was always (to be) a precise tool for the tool-to-the-material workflow.

What many miss is that in the tool-to-material workflow, the rails /and related accessories/ are THE thing. FS/2 accuracy is the thing. The "motor unit" aka the saw is just a small part of the "tool". The tracks - and their functionality like anti-splinter, anti-slip and saw-slip, are what makes the whole system precise. A good saw just makes the cuts clean and nice. The cabinetry-level precision comes from the tracks.

In the same way a good slider is not made by the motor but by the sliding assembly/fences a good tracksaw is made by the rails and its interface with them.

As for the other makers, you are sadly correct. It is very very recently OTHER MAKERS started to approach the accuracy of Festool TS series and making cabinetry-worthy tools. Still today many/most tracksaws made are, indeed, rough-work tools as they just re-purpose the circular saw mechanics for the tracksaw products. But that is not a dicussion about Festool anymore, is it?

ADD:
The first saws which can use tracks were indeed carpentry circular saws. But those were no "tracksaws" as "the English" ended up calling them. They were hand circular saws which *can* use tracks. Aka "Handkreissäge" in the Festool parlance. Completely different animals to the TS series using WAY less precise tracks.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

A while back, I made this hollowed out cove cut for a pencil tray.  It was pretty straightforward, though I had to make a couple of sample cuts to get the right radius. 

I would not know how to do this with a track saw.

I personally wouldn't even consider tablesaw coving in my decision. One could always use a router bit to cove instead, which might even save time considering cleanup of the tablesaw cut. And my tablesaw has a built-in riving knife, which has to be removed to cove, and it's a bit of trial and error to setup the clamped angled fences as well.

Upon seeing this subject brought up as part of this discussion, this was my first reaction. I knew there would be at least a few who would never consider this technique. I'm not really sure why, it is a perfectly safe operation.
The router option is not only limited by the sizes available, but would be an added expense for a minimal need. Buying a bit for a one-time (potentially) need is not in the plans of many hobby woodworkers. The table saw is already there...

As I said before, I wouldn't want to be without a table saw, but it is certainly not a do-it-all thing.
The two complement each other, very much like a router table and a hand-held.
The size of the workpiece should be the determining factor.

As an example
At the shop where I work, we don't build cabinets with integral toe-kick space. The boxes themselves are flat-bottomed and sit on a toe-kick platform. It is a rectangular frame made of 4" plywood strips.
Way back in the day, one of the "informal tests" of new guys was to have them rip these strips. Give them a 4 x 8 sheet of 3/4" ply and watch. The overwhelming majority of them will try to rip 4" strips right off of the full sheet. Even in a big shop, with great infeed and outfeed support, this in sketchy at best.
At bare minimum, I would cut the sheet in half (lengthwise) and go from there with the smaller pieces.
Now, What happens if you only need one strip from a sheet? This is the track saw's time to shine.
Quick, easy, and safe.

 

[Mini Me]

Do not want to argue much, so will try to be short:

The (Festool) tracksaw (precise name translation is "plunge saw" actually) was NEVER a "rough carpentry tool". Period

If it was as accurate and easy to use as you contend then all the aftermarket accessories would not be needed.

 

[Bob D.]

A while back, I made this hollowed out cove cut for a pencil tray.  It was pretty straightforward, though I had to make a couple of sample cuts to get the right radius. 

I would not know how to do this with a track saw.

I personally wouldn't even consider tablesaw coving in my decision. One could always use a router bit to cove instead, which might even save time considering cleanup of the tablesaw cut. And my tablesaw has a built-in riving knife, which has to be removed to cove, and it's a bit of trial and error to setup the clamped angled fences as well.

I solved your last concern by not clamping my cove jig to the table. Recently I needed to make a cove cut larger than any router bit I have. I needed to make some rolling pin trays fast (needed them that day) so no time to build a new jig. So I cut pockets to use four 95# MagSwitches with my router dado jig. It worked out very well. The jig I used for this one time cove cut will not work for any material more than 3/4" thick. But I could make something similar that was intended for cove cutting. If your TS has a CI top the MagSwitches work great in the same way they do for featherboards.

Here's a video from Marc showing his setup. I did basically the same thing but I made use of my dado jig and did not build the parallelogram cove jig the he did.
=350s

 

[twistsol1]

We got a bit off topic. The Original question was can the Festool system replace a table saw, not can a track saw replace a table saw.

If you need to or want to cut coves on the table saw, here’s a link to an online calculator to set the cove anglehttps://www.sawdustzone.org/articles/miscellaneous/825089-cove-cut-calculator

 

[smorgasbord]

Bummer the calculator doesn't handle blades larger than 10" diameter.

 

[tomktest]

No need to have a table saw or router to cut a cove when you can use a Polish plane

Fast forward to 5:36

 

[ChuckS]

We got a bit off topic. The Original question was can the Festool system replace a table saw, not can a track saw replace a table saw.
Snip.

If that's the question, the answer is "OF COURSE", because the "Festool system" itself also includes the table saw product.

 

[smorgasbord]

No need to have a table saw or router to cut a cove when you can use a Polish plane

What happened to his left foot, btw?