Domino & Biscuit Advantages

[jacko9]

Well, that was easy !    Thanks guyz !

Gotta love it.

Wait a minute, did you consider getting the XL700 instead of the Domino 500?  Just messing with ya!  I have both and I bought the XL700 after owning the Domino 500 for five years and I use both.  However, I have to say that I use the smaller DF500 more in my furniture building.  You'll love the Domino!

Jack

 

[sancho57]

Advantages

Dominos: add strength to the joint  loose m&t
Align the joint when edge joining
Precision application

Biscuits:
Used when non precision application
Where strength isn't required Non m&t
Helps with alignment for edge joining
Can be sued to undercut door jambs when tiling.

 

[Bohdan]

The main reason that I got the 500 was that biscuits were never accurate enough for alignment, they have too much slop. It was explained to me that the biscuits are loose to be easy to assemble and are supposed to swell up when covered in glue. I find that by the time the biscuit has swelled the glue has gone off enough to prevent the joint aligning itself.

Since getting the 500 I have not used biscuits.

 

[Timtool]

I never had too much good result with biscuits, i had a Bosch joiner not lamello though. Completely stopped using it after i got the domino which is superior in basically every possible task.
Lamello has invented new systems around their joiner that are quite creative but very expensive and very limited, great engineering but it doesn't fit my way of working.

 

[Kev]

The only reason I've heard for buying a biscuit joiner over a Domino that I can't dispute is that knock down connectors are available that fit biscuit slots.

Hopefully we'll see some knock down connectors that work with the Festool system - they're missing out on a big opportunity.

Excellent points.

Domicams?

 

[John H]

Don't overlook the lowly dowel!

There are a couple of high quality "systems" on the market (they have come a long way)

I have the Jessem Paralign.  Very simple to use and you don't need a dust extractor
http://www.jessem.com/PARALIGN_DOWELLING_JIG.html
[attachimg=1]

Dowelmax also makes one
http://www.dowelmax.com/

ps - I have a Lamello Top 20 and along with my Paralign - I never saw the need or had the urge to buy a Domino

 

[DzordanoBruno]

I really like Lamello videos and special  lamello  parts, but they are really expensive and I thing the domino is so much better jointer.

 

[Linbro]

"The funny thing is, if Festool made a biscuit joiner, I bet the people who say there's no use for a biscuit joiner would be singing its virtues."

Of course they would.
Biscuit joiners absolutely have their place in the workshop, and I don't really see much overlap in the use of biscuits - dominoes. Dominoes are a replacement for true mortise & tenon joinery, and should be compared to that, not compared to biscuit joinery, which is by no means a replacement for m&t's.
Also, if you had a Lamello joiner, I really don't think you'd be 'using it as a door stop', or letting it 'collect dust'.

 

[Kev]

This has become a question of tools rather than a question of joinery technique ...

We're comparing biscuit joints, dowel joints and floating tenon joints (the common hidden joinery methods). Tenons and dowels do have exposed variants - but let's stay off that for the moment.

Each technique has its pros and cons and we could spend hours debating these. Personally I think a floating tenon that allows for an accurate dry fit and test assembly with high degrees of accuracy is a great thing ... but very time consuming without the Domino.

My solution, get a Domino and use the joint I prefer.

I've alway though of dowel joints as the IKEA of joining methods. I've wavered on a Lamello and do envisage a benefit in having more "wiggle" available in specific applications with a biscuit joint.

 

[GPowers]

The Domino changes the way you approach woodworking. It has allowed me to build thing better and faster with less skills. Like every one is saying it is a GAME CHANGER!! 

 

[John H]

...I've alway though of dowel joints as the IKEA of joining methods. I've wavered on a Lamello and do envisage a benefit in having more "wiggle" available in specific applications with a biscuit joint.

Have you ever had a chance to actually use a 'quality' dowel jig like the Jessem or Dowelmax?

FineWoodworking did a test using a frame type joint (think face frames, doors, etc) in issue #203

They measured how much force (in lbs) was required to cause the joint to fail.  The Biscuit failed at 545 lbs, the Domino failed at 597 lbs, but the dowel beat them both and failed at 759 lbs...

 

[Kev]

...I've alway though of dowel joints as the IKEA of joining methods. I've wavered on a Lamello and do envisage a benefit in having more "wiggle" available in specific applications with a biscuit joint.

Have you ever had a chance to actually use a 'quality' dowel jig like the Jessem or Dowelmax?

FineWoodworking did a test using a frame type joint (think face frames, doors, etc) in issue #203

They measured how much force (in lbs) was required to cause the joint to fail.  The Biscuit failed at 545 lbs, the Domino failed at 597 lbs, but the dowel beat them both and failed at 759 lbs...

In that case I'll drop both of my Dominos on the tip and race out and buy a 'quality' dowel jig [big grin]

.. or in fact no, I'll dig out the biscuit joiner as 545 lbs is way beyond my expectation.

[member=20021]John H[/member] there's no need to get defensive over your beloved dowels ... so I associate them with IKEA furniture (flat pack cam lock stuff most often), you obviously see it differently. That's fine.

To answer you question, yes .. and I'm more than skilful enough to use dowel jigs very accurately and successfully if I choose. I have a few that certainly weren't cheap, but they haven't seen the light of day in years (along with bags of dowels in various sizes).

There've been lot's of tests for ultimate joint strength and nobody would be stupid enough to say that a dowel joint is fundamentally weak (I'm convinced the tenon v's dowel v's biscuit is trotted out whenever there's a gap to be filled in a woodworking publication). The beauty of the Domino is it's ease and the accuracy (once you've mastered it) ... if you've never become familiar with the Domino's benefits, you're simply in the dark about it.

 

[Holmz]

The Domino changes the way you approach woodworking. It has allowed me to build thing better and faster with less skills. Like every one is saying it is a GAME CHANGER!!

It is only a game changer for real wood and joints that are used in real wood.
If one is doing sheet goods, then it is not that much of a game changer.

The fact people have suggested that they wanted a no-oscillate mode for doweling seems like it points to them wanting a joint that differs from the Domino's blind tenon joint.

And I got a Domino to use it for those Domino joints.

However it is a fact that there are also doweling machines that can do large dowels, so effectively there is some overlap in the Domino and a doweling machine. And a dowel looks like a tenon. If one wants a loose fit on the dowels, then that is NOT an option, and the Domino allows for some slop. It is hard to say that slop is a good thing when compared to being able to achieve better positioning with doweling that requires no slop.

So "which tool is best" totally depends on which joints one is making, and that is largely determined by the materials one is using.

 

[Timtool]

Don't forget that a single dowel will have a very weak resistance to racking or twisting, it also won't align parts. You always need at least two per joint for that.

I agree that in terms of strength on wide parts or panel furniture it will be stronger than biscuits or dominos because those have a limited depth.

Biscuits have severe limitations in terms of depth, and minimal width of parts you can join, dowels also require 2 per joint if you work properly which also limits the minimal width of parts you can join. All this is not a problem for the domino.
I make furniture in series and in several instances there are parts that can only be joined by domino because they are only 20mm wide. For the other joints dowels could be used but it is at least twice the work in joining and gluing and i have learned that one big tenon is much better than 2 small ones because it's faster and the risk on drying out before clamping doubles when the amount of joints doubles.

 

[jacko9]

When considering the use of a wooden dowel for furniture construction think about the cross section of a dowel and consider that after many years of wet/dry seasonal change half of the glue joint (the end grain half) will falter eventually.  Read about wood movement in the book "Understanding Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley for a more detailed discussion of glue joints.  The Fine Woodworking test was done when the joint was first made but you have to consider what happens to your furniture in the years ahead.

Jack

 

[Holmz]

How do I consider what will happen in the future?
A good post for "Back to the Future" day, but realistically I need it dumbed down.

 

[jacko9]

How do I consider what will happen in the future?
A good post for "Back to the Future" day, but realistically I need it dumbed down.

Think of a rail to stile joint constructed with dowels half of the glue joint in the stile is end grain to end grain.  After years of seasonly expansion/contraction that glue joint will fail and you lose 50% of your strength.  With a M&T joint (slip tenon or not) you just have more long grain to ling grain glue joint.  I highly recommend that you read the reference I mentioned above (it might be available in your local library).

Jack

 

[sancho57]

...I've alway though of dowel joints as the IKEA of joining methods. I've wavered on a Lamello and do envisage a benefit in having more "wiggle" available in specific applications with a biscuit joint.

Have you ever had a chance to actually use a 'quality' dowel jig like the Jessem or Dowelmax?

FineWoodworking did a test using a frame type joint (think face frames, doors, etc) in issue #203

They measured how much force (in lbs) was required to cause the joint to fail.  The Biscuit failed at 545 lbs, the Domino failed at 597 lbs, but the dowel beat them both and failed at 759 lbs...

Good info
, but how do dowls work for 6/ 8 sided boxes? Miter joints, miter cabinets?

I buy for versatility.

 

[Linbro]

...I've alway though of dowel joints as the IKEA of joining methods. I've wavered on a Lamello and do envisage a benefit in having more "wiggle" available in specific applications with a biscuit joint.

Have you ever had a chance to actually use a 'quality' dowel jig like the Jessem or Dowelmax?

FineWoodworking did a test using a frame type joint (think face frames, doors, etc) in issue #203

They measured how much force (in lbs) was required to cause the joint to fail.  The Biscuit failed at 545 lbs, the Domino failed at 597 lbs, but the dowel beat them both and failed at 759 lbs...

Good info
, but how do dowls work for 6/ 8 sided boxes? Miter joints, miter cabinets?

I buy for versatility.

Mafell DD40 can drill pairs of dowell holes at 90° - 180°, as well as drill series of shelf pin holes.
No joint can compare to a true mortice & tenon, and in no way am I criticising the Domino, but is a 'loose' tenon any better than the equivalent dowells? Especially when you take into account how good contemporary glues are.

 

[Holmz]

The biscuit has more (glue) area than a Domino and the dowel comes in third.
The biscuit and the Domino both are asymmetric, whereas the dowel is not. That is either a benefit not. (Clearly not in a thin sheet.)

So a loose tenon (domino and dowel)... one is a round loose tenon, and the other is a rectangular loose tenon.