Domino Decking Fastners

hi bob.
this is one festool product i would not be interested in.
i have tried no nail systems before and while they do look good, they are not cost effective.
the amount of labour is doubled, sometimes tripled.
clients just wont pay for it.

when i deck my own house. i will use a no nail system, as my time is my own.

regards, justin.
 
Actually I just posted my use of domino SIPO pieces as a means to attach decking by boring a mortise about 5mm shorter on each plank than the domino piece, the resulting 10mm leaves me enough room to screw down the tenon right into the joist. 

I am sure the metal clamps will cost more than the SIPO dominos
 
I've never done a hidden fastener system before, but then again, I don't do decks often. Looks cool though.

DimTex said:
Actually I just posted my use of domino SIPO pieces as a means to attach decking by boring a mortise about 5mm shorter on each plank than the domino piece, the resulting 10mm leaves me enough room to screw down the tenon right into the joist. 

I am sure the metal clamps will cost more than the SIPO dominos
Click to expand...

Especially if you make your own.
 
I use the Tiger Claw's for all my decks and porches.

http://www.deckfastener.com/products_tcg.asp

The slot cutter also pictured let's me put a hidden fastener on the inside of my outside border boards.
My goal is 99% fastener free surface.

For the money people have to spend on composite decks/porches, you better use the best stainless fastener you can find.
Tiger claw now makes a gun to shot the tc-g's.

They are fairly easy once you figure out how to hold that first board in place with no face screws.

The tc-g's are just under 50 bucks a bag.  90 ct. bags.  I think one bag covers around 60 sq/ft. 
Good exterior screws are expensive, and the other ways to hidden fasten decks are even more labor intensive.
 
OK, so by the sounds of it, they're bringing the Festool deck board fasteners to North America.  I say north America hoping Canada gets it in and around the same time....wishful thinking I suspect.

Question for me is when such hints/talk are surfacing like this...how long from now.  I'm building a deck this summer, would it be unrealistic to hope for this by then?
 
Kevin, products are generally released simultaneously in the U.S. and Canada.  In fact, I can't think of an exception right off hand. I think you may see these by summer.  We showed them at the IBS tradeshow in January and there's a video on YouTube if I'm not mistaken of an interview with Rick showing them off.

Edit: Here's the video with Chris Marshall from WWJ.

International Builders Show 2010 - Festool
 
Thanks for putting that video link up Shane.  Now I'm getting excited....but at what price versus other hidden fasteners on the market?

Hope it's here by summer.
 
I have built several decks using the Deckmaster bracket system:

http://www.grabberman.com/Deckmaster/

Deckmaster adds at least $3 to $4 per square foot to the cost of building a deck, including labor and materials.  The Festool system appears to be more labor intensive, and I'd bet the brackets are pricey.  It will be interesting to see how the costs work out.  In my experience, very few clients are willing to pay the added cost of a bracketing system, even though the finished deck is much more attractive and weather resistant.

I refurbished my own cabin deck with Deckmaster several years ago and have been pleased with the outcome.  Here's a photo.  Notice there are no screws showing.

 
This seems to be turning into a "best decking" discussion.  Which I really don't mind myself, but are we not stealing from the OP's thread?

Nevertheless, it is along the same lines, and I personally want these kinds of feedbacks. (sorry to OP if this is perturbing) [unsure]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the Kreg method mentioned not a method whereby the boards are still not "floating/abve" the joist members?

Where I live - southern Ontario/Toronto GTA - we get both extremes.  Super hot summers/wicked winters/rainy springs/rainy falls.  My inclinations are always to be observant of seasonal changes of course, but here we have the gamut of everything but earthquakes/landslides/hurricanes, and we still have to deal with ornery construction by-laws.

It's amazing in my mind that there are no "difinitive ways" of doing decks based on the gamut of books I've bought over many years.  In fact my town seems oblivious on some of the products I've presented as a precursor at their counter when I've presented them for consideration.  They site being approved by either a Provinvicial or Federal "Buildings/Construction" approval body, and many products can't/won't/don't cough up anything satisfying such stipulations further.  Am I the sucker/stupid that just doesn't plough on further and disregard this stuff, and just does what they are confident should work, or do peolple get their municipality to OK such "different" materials.  How do you get them onside with non traditionally recognized materials, or get them to ignore?
 
Kevin D. said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the Kreg method mentioned not a method whereby the boards are still not "floating/abve" the joist members?
Click to expand...

According to their video, you're correct the boards don't float.
 
Although I don't know anything about building decks. After watching the demonstration of the Festool system I can only say, that I'm impressed! Yes, it maybe a slower approach and cost more money. But the benefits would totally offset those down sites! First, it looks way more high end. It will make your deck last longer and therefore you will have happy clients!

I know how tough it is to "upsell", but if we do not try and improve our overall building standards we will all have to live in shit holes in 50 years... Just look around, everything has to be build faster and cheaper....

Let's improve and show North America how it can be done!
 
Kevin D. said:
This seems to be turning into a "best decking" discussion.  Which I really don't mind myself, but are we not stealing from the OP's thread?

Nevertheless, it is along the same lines, and I personally want these kinds of feedbacks. (sorry to OP if this is perturbing) [unsure]
Click to expand...

Hey Kevin,

Not perturbing at all; not in the least. I find the various feedback interesting and are in themselves informative.

Bob
 
EcoFurniture said:
Although I don't know anything about building decks. After watching the demonstration of the Festool system I can only say, that I'm impressed! Yes, it maybe a slower approach and cost more money. But the benefits would totally offset those down sites! First, it looks way more high end. It will make your deck last longer and therefore you will have happy clients!

I know how tough it is to "upsell", but if we do not try and improve our overall building standards we will all have to live in  holes in 50 years... Just look around, everything has to be build faster and cheaper....

Let's improve and show North America how it can be done!
Click to expand...

It's not much of an upsell if they are already spending the bucks on composite decking.

Face screwing expensive composite decks boards is like putting nice rims on a Pinto, just don't make sense.
 
Have to disagree on the Deckmasters. Good product, fast and easy to install. I can have a grunt install the rails while I do something more technical. Granted I only use them on elevated decks that have enough room to least kneel underneath. The tigerclaw are also good but take a little more work.
I can't imagine the Festool brackets being priced competitive enough to be any real competition or alternative.
Obviously we all have different clientele, depending on our region and demographic. Around here going from treated to composite is an upsell. Getting too material or labor costly on the install can easily lose a job. Especially since clients often don't realize how 'less wonderful' the deck will look by going with the cheaper guy who plans on face nailing. It isn't a hard upsell with well heeled clients but you have to have that clientele to really be able to price a nice job.  I won't even consider doing a composite deck with exposed screws. I've done it and even with color matching screws it looks like crap. The client is never quite happy, which of course translate into lost referrals.
 
Seems like a lot of plunges for a little Domino machine.  Two plunges on every deck board at every joist?  Doesn't that add up to around 600 plunges on a 12x12 deck?  Yikes.

At 10 seconds per mortise that's 100 minutes with the domino in your hands for the 12x12 deck.
 
 
It does appear to add up to a lot of time. Imagine the time on a big deck. I for one would not be comfortable letting a grunt do that much work with an $800 tool. My clientele usually isn't well heeled enough to pay for my time to plunge that many holes.
 
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