Domino end stops

[Forrest Anderson]

   Forrest, I measured my cross stops with digital calipers, there was an error 0.19 mm between the two pins.

Brice,
Digital calipers???  0.19 mm??? your a carpenter aren't you?  How the f$%k can you make money  with that kind of accuracy?
Dude, its wood deal with it.

Dude, it's not wood  8)

Brice is measuring the distance between the metal pins on the trim stop and the cutter - no wood involved!

Forrest

 

[Forrest Anderson]

   Forrest, I measured my cross stops with digital calipers, there was an error 0.19 mm between the two pins.

Thanks for that. So the mismatch after inserting the first tenon would be 0.19mm, and by the 10th tenon the cumulative mismatch would be 1.9mm, which is about 5/64".

Do other people get the same difference of about 0.19mm?

Forrest

 

[spikfot]

    Brice is referencing pin spacing with his dig.cal.  The dialog was about calibration which requires such accuracy.  I understand there are a good number of blow and go, caulk and putty guys on this forum, I unfortunately am mostly surrounded by them on a daily basis.  Recent posts  Reflect the obvious separation between attitudes of tradesmen and craftsmen, they are not closely related.
I use a caliper every day on the jobsite for calibration of my tools. It's how the craftsmen do it.
 

 

[mastercabman]

   Forrest, I measured my cross stops with digital calipers, there was an error 0.19 mm between the two pins.

Brice,
Digital calipers???  0.19 mm??? your a carpenter aren't you?  How the f$%k can you make money  with that kind of accuracy?
Dude, its wood deal with it.

Dude, it's not wood  8)

Brice is measuring the distance between the metal pins on the trim stop and the cutter - no wood involved!

Forrest

i would like to know how do you measure to the center of the cutter?
i mean,doesn't the cutter moves side to side?or do you measure from the line at the plastic window on the fence?
not only that,there are 4 different size cutters.
as far as using the end stops,i never use the tight setting,and i don't think it is design to be that accurate.

 

[Michael Kellough]

i would like to know how do you measure to the center of the cutter?
i mean,doesn't the cutter moves side to side?
[/quote]

To get that measurement I would use the pins in the cross stops the same way the Domono's integral pins are used. Register the left (wing) pin to the left edge of a board and mortise. Register the right pin to the right edge of a board and mortise. Then use the calipers to measure the edge of the board to the nearest edge of the mortise.

Ideally the measurements would be the same. A difference of .2mm isn't much for a couple of pieces of palstic but it is too much for fidelfs. If there were no other variables ion the placement of mortises when using the cross stops then the accumulated error at the tenth mortise would be 2mm which (I think) is still within the aperture of the middle width mortise. To be safe, if making that many (or more) mortises in one joint, make some intermediate registration marks and cut those mortises by sight using the centerline of the Domino so accumulated error is zeroed out.

If uncertain which part of the wide mortise to insert the Domino in you can cut all the mortises on one side of the joint (one of the two boards) at the narrow setting and put the Dominos in that board only. This eliminates uncertainty about inserting Dominos but it might shorten the run of mortises you can make with the cross stops before you get too far out of registration. In practise, all you need to do to deal with that is use the wider mortise setting or do the intermediate zero thing.

 

[mastercabman]

i would like to know how do you measure to the center of the cutter?
i mean,doesn't the cutter moves side to side?

To get that measurement I would use the pins in the cross stops the same way the Domono's integral pins are used. Register the left (wing) pin to the left edge of a board and mortise. Register the right pin to the right edge of a board and mortise. Then use the calipers to measure the edge of the board to the nearest edge of the mortise.

Ideally the measurements would be the same. A difference of .2mm isn't much for a couple of pieces of palstic but it is too much for fidelfs. If there were no other variables ion the placement of mortises when using the cross stops then the accumulated error at the tenth mortise would be 2mm which (I think) is still within the aperture of the middle width mortise. To be safe, if making that many (or more) mortises in one joint, make some intermediate registration marks and cut those mortises by sight using the centerline of the Domino so accumulated error is zeroed out.

If uncertain which part of the wide mortise to insert the Domino in you can cut all the mortises on one side of the joint (one of the two boards) at the narrow setting and put the Dominos in that board only. This eliminates uncertainty about inserting Dominos but it might shorten the run of mortises you can make with the cross stops before you get too far out of registration. In practise, all you need to do to deal with that is use the wider mortise setting or do the intermediate zero thing.
[/quote]
thanks,that's what i toughed.

 

[bruegf]

Brice,
Digital calipers???  0.19 mm??? your a carpenter aren't you?  How the f$%k can you make money  with that kind of accuracy?
Dude, its wood deal with it.

Mirko

A friend of my father's was part of the generation that invented aviation and was the guy that carved the wooden propellors for the first commercial transatlantic flight.  My father was the executor of his estate and one of the many interesting things he found was Ed Heath's (inventor of the Heath parasolhttp://www.aviation-history.com/heath/Heath_Parasol.htm) pilot's license that was signed by one of the Wright brothers.

One day as a teenager I went out to his shop w/ my father and as they were talking and he handed me a small leather pouch.  I opened it and it contained less than a small handful of wood shavings.  It turned out that those were the shavings that he had to remove from one of the propellors for the first commercial transatlantic flight to balance it after it was carved to shape.

Another time I watched in amazement as he was running boards through his planer in prepartion for laminating layers from which he would carve a wooden propellor as he checked the thickness with a micrometer.  And we think woodworking can't be accurate to .001..... 

As he was remodeling his home built in the early 1800's he removed all the old plaster and lath strips.  Each piece of lath was numbered, cleaned up and then reinstalled in it's original location after carefully shimming to ensure the wall would be true.  He took being a perfectionist to a whole new level.

Fred

 

[Brice Burrell]

Guys sorry for the confusion about my measuring the cross stops error, I just wanted to get a quick reply to Forrest question.  

Here is what I did, I used digital calipers to measure the distance from the cross stop's pins to the Domino built in pins. Since the Domino's pins are the same distance from the center of the cutter then the distance from the built in pins to the cross stop's pins a differance between the two measurements (left set of pins and the right set, would reflect the error. This was done with the cross stops set to 100 mm first.  When the cross stops were set as far apart as I could still measure them with the calipers, 190 mm, the error was 0.2mm and set to 150 mm the error was 0.18 mm. An average of 0.19 mm error in my cross stops.

 

[Dixon Peer]

This has been an interesting thread; lots of different attitudes about quality in woodworking under the surface here I think.  I am perhaps too much of a perfectionist and expect a lot of myself and my tools.  That's why I started the thread. 

One of my favorite classes in high school years ago was metal shop.  I really liked the precision that was necessary to make things fit together and work properly, and I suppose I bring those lessons to woodworking.  So, when I think there's room for improvement in a tool or attachment, I speak up.  No intent on my part to criticize anyone who feels differently; those that don't care as much about accuracy in wood working...well, that's up to them.  I like things to come out as close to perfection as is possible.

 

[colotimber]

I have been observing this discussion for quite a while and decided that for my first post in this forum I would jump in here.
I am going to weigh in on the side of Fidelfs (since there seems to be two sides to this post) I feel that stops are not consistent with the quality expectation of Festool.  I knew almost nothing about the Domino previous to buying, all I was looking to achieve was more speed in the indexing process that I could not achieve with hand drilling with a top of the line dowel jig.  That jig also uses an indexing pin and rod to reference the next set of dowels which is quite accurate, or at least as accurate as the operator attempts to achieve.  To this end the Domino achieves the goal of speed of the process and does it very well and to add I would not give it up for the world.  I will be honest when I first opened the box and attached the stops I thought to myself, where the hell did these come from?  Made of rather thin plastic that flexes quite easily, especially in the rough and tumble world of wood and glue.  As has been said before I was very disappointed in the quality of the stops. period!  Not the machine, the stops!  I felt as though Festool came up to that part of the "Domino" project and turned it over to someone else and said "we have done the tough part, now finish".  Not the exact quality that I expected from Festool.  The posts that I have read also assume that this is used by a meticulous absolute craftsman with every hole.  I have a couple of "young men" working in my shop that also use this machine and it must past the muster, that they can use this machine repeatedly with a semi attention to detail not a "digital caliper" attention to detail.
I will give one more example of a German company and an index application.  Due to the cabinet portion of my business I also own a Julius Blum Mini drill with the 7 spindle line boring head.  This head uses an indexing pin to locate the next set of shelf pins that needs to have a very fine tolerance (I hate rocking shelves) and to that end this system meets that expectation.  I expected that kind of accuracy and Blum delivered.  I feel that Festool could and maybe still will, rise to the occasion and rectify this in my never be humble opinion, oversight in quality.

Dan

 

[Dan Clermont]

    Brice is referencing pin spacing with his dig.cal.  The dialog was about calibration which requires such accuracy.  I understand there are a good number of blow and go, caulk and putty guys on this forum, I unfortunately am mostly surrounded by them on a daily basis.   Recent posts  Reflect the obvious separation between attitudes of tradesmen and craftsmen, they are not closely related.
I use a caliper every day on the jobsite for calibration of my tools. It's how the craftsmen do it.
   

Hi Spikbot

I find your comment interesting about "blow and go", "caulk and putty guys", "tradesman", "craftsmen".

I have never seen your work but I have seen Mirko's work up close and can tell you he doesn't fit in any category other then "craftsmen".

Brice has dealt with the 0.19mm inaccuracy on his Domino and never found it to be an issue either. Doesn't sound like he needs to pull out digital calipers everyday to tweak his tools. Sounds like he just deals with it.

I am not saying the CrossStops are absolutely bang on accurate and will be 100% accurate after 8 feet of cutting Domino slots. I am smart enough to realize that if I want to use the smallest setting on the Domino I may have to pull out my shooting board and my shooting plane and trim them to fit. If you are on a paying job then you need to factor in that 20 -30 minutes of tweaking. Will the client pay for that extra time? If you have the extra time then feel free to tweak it and eat the time.

I use calipers all the time on my home projects. I like things to be a certain way but I couldn't imagine someone wanting to pay me on a jobsite or in a woodshop if I sat there everyday measuring my tools with calipers.

I use Festool's because they provide a level of accuracy, tight tolerances and excellent dust control. Even my wife doesn't mind me spending the money on high quality tools.

Dan Clermont

 

[Michael Kellough]

...I feel that stops are not consistent with the quality expectation of Festool...Made of rather thin plastic that flexes quite easily...I was very disappointed in the quality of the stops. period!  Not the machine, the stops!  I felt as though Festool came up to that part of the "Domino" project and turned it over to someone else and said "we have done the tough part, now finish".  Not the exact quality that I expected from Festool.

Dan

I missed the beginning of this thread. When I jumped in it was at the "this tool is indeed useful and here's how to use it". If I had known it had started as "these plastic things aren't as good as the metal things Festool makes" I might not have posted.

Dixon and Dan have clarified the position of the "cross stops are disappointing" camp and I have to partially agree. Plastic molding is the weakest area in Festool's manufacturing process IMO. Therefore, the cross stops are completely consistent with that category. Several other plastic accessories Festool sells are significantly less than they could be. The ones that come to mind are the guide rails stops for routers and jig saws. They seem to be designed as if they should be cast from zinc, and probably would be better in some ways if they where. The reality of how plastics behave after release from the mold doesn't seem to have informed the design process sufficiently. As a result we have guide rail stops that rock on the guide rail and detents that aren't exactly where they should be, etc.

These things certainly could be better but they are the only things that fit our Festools directly. Those willing to figure out how to use them, which includes understanding the shortcomings and devising workarounds, will be glad to have them. The FOG is a great way to access the products and discuss how to get the most out of the things Festool makes. Improvements are always welcome and Festool is good at making improvements.

 

[Steve Jones]

As comfortable and prevalent as the current knee jerk reaction that plastic is bad is....

I can imagine a bunch of very qualified and experienced German engineers designing some quick stops for their new wonder tool. I suspect the discussion went something like this...

We need to fit some wings with variable stops to reach several centimeters from each side of the body.
Which will have to be very light, since we can't make the tool unweildy
but they will be subject to flex forces in the vertical direction and must be flexible on that plane
but must be rigid in a plane parallel to the body of the tool....

and then someone says "Plastic" it's the perfect solution! it's light, very strong (at least the stuff Festool uses is), and fexible where you need it and rigid when you make the profile larger in one direction.

and then months later the group reads this discussion and shoots themselves.

 

[fidelfs]

and then someone says "Plastic" it's the perfect solution! it's light, very strong (at least the stuff Festool uses is), and fexible where you need it and rigid when you make the profile larger in one direction.

and then months later the group reads this discussion and shoots themselves

Right On!!!!

 

[greg mann]

As comfortable and prevalent as the current knee jerk reaction that plastic is bad is....

I can imagine a bunch of very qualified and experienced German engineers designing some quick stops for their new wonder tool. I suspect the discussion went something like this...

We need to fit some wings with variable stops to reach several centimeters from each side of the body.
Which will have to be very light, since we can't make the tool unweildy
but they will be subject to flex forces in the vertical direction and must be flexible on that plane
but must be rigid in a plane parallel to the body of the tool....

and then someone says "Plastic" it's the perfect solution! it's light, very strong (at least the stuff Festool uses is), and fexible where you need it and rigid when you make the profile larger in one direction.

and then months later the group reads this discussion and shoots themselves.

One might add that the stop needs to be fragile enough to fail itself rather than bust a piece out of the body if/when one of us drops the tool.

 

[Eli]

and then months later the group reads this discussion and shoots themselves.

You obviously don't hang around with many Germans. They could give a crap what you think.  ;D

Within the parameters they designed the tool, AFA they're concerned it's perfect. They'd be the first to tell you the user is the problem.

 

[Dixon Peer]

and then months later the group reads this discussion and shoots themselves.

You obviously don't hang around with many Germans. They could give a crap what you think.  ;D

Within the parameters they designed the tool, AFA they're concerned it's perfect. They'd be the first to tell you the user is the problem.

I'm waiting to hear from the Germans, as a matter of fact.  I don't think they will be telling their good customers that they are the problem.

 

[Dave Rudy]

Dixon and Dan have clarified the position of the "cross stops are disappointing" camp and I have to partially agree.

Here's the problem I have with the complaint about the cross stop: it seems to be entirely theoretical.  A tool should be designed with sufficient tolerance to do the job being asked of it.  Woodworking tools could be designed to a tolerance of ten-thousandths, but the extra r&D and cost would be wasted.  Some seem to be saying that everything Festool should be made to an extremely hight  standard of precision even when the task doesn't require that level of precision.  My question is practical, and I have not received an answer to it:  what are you going to use the cross- stop for that requires the precision you claim necessary but that Festool failed to provide?  If you are using the cross-stop for alignment to edge-glue boards, who cares whether you use the smallest domino width or the largest?  They work equally well.

If the pins on the domino itself were plastic and sloppy, I would agree with the beef.  But the Domino is pure precision.  When it comes to long runs of widely spaced dominoes, I can't understand the fuss.  Personally, I'd rather have the Festool engineers dreaming up new tools that are not available in North America  than to waste time making stronger cross-stops to acheive additional precision useless to the task at hand, to satisfy some intangible desire for "quality".

 

[Brice Burrell]

I'm waiting to hear from the Germans, as a matter of fact.  I don't think they will be telling their good customers that they are the problem.

Dixon, sadly I think Eli is right, Festool Germany doesn' t care about the US users much. Remember they don't even think we need manuals, we (in the US) should just know how the tools work like the rest of the world.  ;D I think Festools USA cares, but what can they do??

 

[Dan Clermont]

I'm waiting to hear from the Germans, as a matter of fact.  I don't think they will be telling their good customers that they are the problem.

Dixon, sadly I think Eli is right, Festool Germany doesn' t care about the US users much. Remember they don't even think we need manuals, we (in the US) should just know how the tools work like the rest of the world.  ;D I think Festools USA cares, but what can they do??

I think Festool USA puts tools in the hands of people like Jerry Work so he can write application type manuals. It is all part of  marketing.

How many people out there in North America got a much better understanding of the MFS and MFT after Jerry wrote his manuals?

I for one purchased a MFS and MFT after reading Jerry's manuals

Dan Clermont

Dan Clermont