Domino Frustrations

[Shutterstile]

I finally broke down and bought a Domino a couple of months ago. I have every confidence that it will eventually allow me to create mortise and tenon joints much more quickly than the old hollow chisel mortiser and table saw tenoning jig I used to use. I say "eventually" because I'm still trying to work out a couple of critical bugs in the design.

After reading through the Forum, I found a number of others who were having trouble squaring the fence. Several folks suggested a method involving the use of 3/4 stock set on a flat surface. In theory, this ought to work. And to be fair, it does work when using the standard tenons. However, I'm not happy with the standard tenons. I need something much more substantial. So I use the largest cutter, set the machine at it's deepest setting, and make my own tenons which are twice as wide as the widest standard tenon, and a bit longer. Now I've got something really substantial.

The downside is that these larger tenons magnify any error in the machine settings. I quickly discovered that the machine has a slight bit of flex such that, when the fence is set to square while resting on a flat surface (using the recommended method), it doesn't stay square while hanging off the end of a workpiece. Granted the difference is fairly minor and doesn't really matter at all when using the standard tenons. But with my wider and longer tenons, the difference is dramatic and easily seen with a straight edge laid across the joint. So the only way to set it square is with trial and error. Then, once you finally get it right, you've got to fold up the fence to put the machine back in its storage case. In my case, the fence is so far out of square, that the stop doesn't have enough travel to be functional. So I have to leave the machine out of the box to save the adjustment.

A second, related issue is one that I haven't seen mentioned in the Forum previously. I created a jig to allow me to quickly make the double-wide mortises. Basically, it consists of two parallel blocks that serve as stops for the sides of the machine, spaced to provide the correct mortise width. Others have posted similar jigs. The success of this design assumes two critical design characteristics: 1) that the cutter is centered horizontally in the machine; 2) that the base of the machine is square (i.e., that the sides are perpendicular to the face). I'm not sure if the cutter on my machine is centered, because the base is so far out of square that I can't cut a reliable test mortise to check for center. When I set the face of the machine against a work piece, placed in the jig and set perpendicular to the side blocks, the machine doesn't rest square in the jig. I checked the base with a square and found that it is a couple of degrees off. The only way I can think of to compensate for this is to make my jig intentionally out of square the same amount. I'm working on that, but it seems like a pretty crude design flaw for such an expensive piece of equipment.

Finally, I've had problems with the depth setting changing during operation. I recently cut mortises for 24 joints. First I cut mortises in all of the rails, then all of the stiles. I checked the first rail/stile pair to make sure everything lined up before cutting mortises in the remaining stiles. When I was all done, I discovered that the depth setting had change in mid-operation. The tensioning knob was still tight, but the fence was no longer resting on the depth stop. Only the first couple of rail/stile pairs lined up. The mortises in the remaining stiles were cut about a 32nd of an inch deeper than the mortises in the corresponding rails. I have no idea why this happened, and I'm really nervous now that it might happen again. The result is that I take almost as much time cutting mortises with the Domino than I used to take with my old hollow chisel mortiser. It's tough to work with a machine that you don't have confidence in.

Sorry for the lengthy dissertation. Thanks for allowing me to vent.

 

[waho6o9]

I was wondering if you had the domino  hooked up to a vacuum. like a ct33.  A little sawdust mucks up the joint when not using a ct33.  Dominos rock.  [wink]

 

[peter halle]

First  [welcome] to the FOG.  I am truly sorry that you are having issues with your Domino.  It sounds to me like you should contact Festool directly and talk to the service department before your frustration level gets worse.  They can be reached at 888.337.8600.  

I would attempt to give you guidance, but although I have owned my Domino for quite a while - my usage is less than many others here.

Let us know what happens.

Respectfully,

Peter

 

[Shutterstile]

Dust isn't a problem. My vac is keeping it very clean. More importantly, the errors are always consistent, not the sort of thing you would expect if a piece of dust got trapped between the machine and work piece.

 

[spikfot]

I've never heard of anyone having a fence that far out of square. Sounds like grounds for a return. I, along with others have had the height slip during use. I reset my tightening  knob into a position where I could get more of a grab and have had no problems since. The gripping position you choose can also put a lot of unnecessary strain on the guide.
 I stick with the stock sizes for mortising as I have other jigs for the big ones so I can't help you there, but it does seem that what you describe could be possible, be aware that as the cutter moves in and out of the cut mortise into the 2nd cut, the cutter naturally will try to grab and shift, as the cutter is designed to plunge into uncut material.  In that regard, one can't blame a tool for not preforming a task it isn't designed to do.
Hope that helps.

 

[Shutterstile]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that what I describe doesn't seem possible. I'm sure I'm not having problems with the tool shifting. I've set up the width so that it's slightly more than twice the normal width. So I cut a mortise on the right side, then cut one on the left side. Then move the machine to the center to remove the small divider between. This really isn't any different than the procedure Festool describes in the manual for installing multiple tenons along a edge joint, except that I'm making them closer together and using my own wide tenon rather than two narrow ones. I don't really see how any of the three problems I described could have anything to do with this. The base plate is absolutely out of square. The machine definitely has a slight amount of deflection when it hangs off of the work piece. And, as you mentioned, others have had the problem with the height slip. It's not as if I'm using the machine as a hammer. It's designed to cut mortises and that's exactly what I doing with it.

 

[Shutterstile]

Sorry, William, for the typo in my last reply. I know you said that what I described could be possible, not that it couldn't. I was just confused over which issue you were referring to.

 

[spikfot]

Now I understand the steps you are taking - 2 separate mortises and then a cleanout stroke in the middle. I couldn't see that causing a problem. I'm on my 4th box of doms and have had no serious problems. Just wondering- when you say "a few degrees off" I'm assuming you mean over 90?(obtuse) since you state that you can adjust to correct it.
The detents should be dead-on, if they are anything but, send it back.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

..... So I cut a mortise on the right side, then cut one on the left side. Then move the machine to the center to remove the small divider between.

If you had said that you were making your mortises with the wide setting and just one plunge, then I would see how easily this could be happening. However, because you are making these with 3 plunges, you actually reduce the likelihood of a sloped mortise. Aside from the past comments about the fence slipping, a lot of new users reported difficulty with alignment that was due to the unfamiliarity with the tool. Even I found myself with having to re-learn how to use this tool compared to how I used a biscuit joiner previously.

 

[Shutterstile]

Rick, I'm not really having problems with alignment. As long as the fence doesn't slip, the top surfaces of the two mating pieces align perfectly. I've cut dozens of mortises with this setup with consistent results. Moreover, the "slope" is also consistent from one mortise to the next. Keep in mind that a very minor error in the angle of the mortise is doubled when the two pieces are assembled.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Have you contacted Festool Technical Support? or the dealer you bought the tool from?

I have not had many issues with Domino alignment issues from customers and those that have had issues have had good luck getting their Domino's fixed / aligned without shipping them back.

Festool Support is very good and very helpful

Dan Clermont

 

[Shutterstile]

I appreciate all the responses. But everyone seems to be focusing on the fence alignment issue, which I feel is manageable. What really bugs me is that the base plate is not square. I build shutters. When I cut my rails to length, I always double check to make sure the ends are square. I can't imaging sending one out that wasn't perfect. These Domino base plates have to be cast in a mold that nobody bothered to get right to begin with. Either that, or the faces are milled after casting on a machine that isn't properly set up.

I remember reading a response to a message on another forum a while back which said (to paraphrase): it's wood, not metal - we can't expect perfection. Well this machine is metal, not wood. So shouldn't we expect it to be at least as well made as the woodworking projects we intend to use it for?

 

[Tezzer]

Shutter, im a bit like the others and confused with what you are saying. Best way to clarify it is to post a couple of photos 

 

[peter halle]

I remember reading a response to a message on another forum a while back which said (to paraphrase): it's wood, not metal - we can't expect perfection. Well this machine is metal, not wood. So shouldn't we expect it to be at least as well made as the woodworking projects we intend to use it for?

This forum might be a place to get advice, but sometimes if you have a problem with a tool, you will get faster response by following the procedures set up by the manufacturer and documented in the owners manual.  If you feel that the tool is built wrong, advice here is not going to cure that.

Again, I would suggest, as have others, that you contact Festool.  Their number is conveniently on the label on each power tool but for your convenience - 888.337.8600.  If you want to contact Festool service via email, their email address is service@festoolusa.com.  There have been so many posts here regarding the customer service that they provide, but you need to contact them to let them help you.

Respectfully,

Peter

 

[Shutterstile]

My mistake, Peter. I thought the forum was a place to "Post CONSTRUCTIVE discussions about problems with the tools...and solutions." If you'll read my post carefully, I don't believe I actually asked for advice, although I certainly appreciate all that has been offered. My primary reason for posting is to share my experiences with the tool and to find out whether others might have had similar experiences. I first visited the forum before purchasing the tool to find out what kinds of problems other might be having. In that spirit, I had hoped that others in a similar position might benefit from my experience.

I described three problems. The first, difficulties squaring the fence, was meant to warn others that the most often recommended procedure didn't work for me and, therefore, may not work for you either. The second, the problem of the sides of the base being out of square with the face, was intended to warn those who are using similar jigs to guide the tool that the results may be less than perfect. The third, the problem of the depth setting slipping during operation was intended to warn users to check this setting frequently.

Possible solutions. For the first problem, the only solution I've come up with is a trial and error attempt to square the fence. I adjust it, cut some mortises, install a tenon, assemble the two components, and check the top surface with a straight edge. If its' out of alignment, I readjust and repeat the process. If someone has a better method, I'd love to hear it, but Festool hasn't even seen fit to address the issue in their manual.

For the second problem, the aluminum frame of the tool is obviously a casting. I would be surprised to find that mine is any different from yours (to find out, lay a square across the machined face of the tool and see if the sides of the base are a true 90 degrees to the face - this probably doesn't matter to most, but it's a problem for my intended us). I can't imaging that anything can be done to fix this problem on my machine other than replacing it. And, unless Festool was aware of the problem and has changed the castings as a result, I would expect the replacement machine to have the same problem.

As for the third problem, I've discovered from others who commented on my post that my experience isn't unusual. Here again, I don't see what Festool can do to help me. But they might consider design changes to help others in the future.

 

[kfitzsimons]

I just ordered a Domino, and I'm now having second thoughts.  I would expect a machine that costs a mint would perform PERFECTLY right out of the box.  A defective fence or any misalignment should not be an issue.  Aren't they tested for quality of cut before leaving the factory if this is an issue? I've saved a long time for this purchase and I'll be very upset if I have issues with the Domino.  I've never purchased a tool and not had it work as promised in the literature.  Reading these posts is not what I would expect of Festool tools.

 

[Mark Carlson]

Shutterstile,

1st problem:  My fence is not square when at 90 degrees.  More like 89.5.  I always flip the domino on its back and put a square on the back and a square on the fence and tighten the fence when the verticals meet.  Works well for me.  I think there is screw near the 90 degree detent that allows you to adjust this but I've never bothered because I use the domino about 1 a month.  I always thought it strange that the manual doesn't mention that you should check this measurement and also doesn't mention how to fix it.  It was getting less than perfect results at first and it took me awhile to figure out what was going on.  Note: I now get perfect results and love using the domino.

2nd problem:  If I understand this correctly.  I brought my fence to 0 degrees and measured the base to the face and get a perfect 90 degrees.  This allows me to register the tool on a flat surface instead of using the fence.  If this is not the case you should return your machine for another.

3rd problem: I haven't experienced the slipping issue that others have reported.

Let us know how you make out.

~mark

My mistake, Peter. I thought the forum was a place to "Post CONSTRUCTIVE discussions about problems with the tools...and solutions." If you'll read my post carefully, I don't believe I actually asked for advice, although I certainly appreciate all that has been offered. My primary reason for posting is to share my experiences with the tool and to find out whether others might have had similar experiences. I first visited the forum before purchasing the tool to find out what kinds of problems other might be having. In that spirit, I had hoped that others in a similar position might benefit from my experience.

I described three problems. The first, difficulties squaring the fence, was meant to warn others that the most often recommended procedure didn't work for me and, therefore, may not work for you either. The second, the problem of the sides of the base being out of square with the face, was intended to warn those who are using similar jigs to guide the tool that the results may be less than perfect. The third, the problem of the depth setting slipping during operation was intended to warn users to check this setting frequently.

Possible solutions. For the first problem, the only solution I've come up with is a trial and error attempt to square the fence. I adjust it, cut some mortises, install a tenon, assemble the two components, and check the top surface with a straight edge. If its' out of alignment, I readjust and repeat the process. If someone has a better method, I'd love to hear it, but Festool hasn't even seen fit to address the issue in their manual.

For the second problem, the aluminum frame of the tool is obviously a casting. I would be surprised to find that mine is any different from yours (to find out, lay a square across the machined face of the tool and see if the sides of the base are a true 90 degrees to the face - this probably doesn't matter to most, but it's a problem for my intended us). I can't imaging that anything can be done to fix this problem on my machine other than replacing it. And, unless Festool was aware of the problem and has changed the castings as a result, I would expect the replacement machine to have the same problem.

As for the third problem, I've discovered from others who commented on my post that my experience isn't unusual. Here again, I don't see what Festool can do to help me. But they might consider design changes to help others in the future.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Shutter, point about sharing your experiences is well taken and we tend to lose sight of that here from time to time. Keep in mind everyone here is trying to help and sometimes our eagerness gets in the way constructive discussion.

I've got a few questions and comments. First, your issues with the fence not being perfectly square to cut your deep mortises an issue with the weight of the tool itself? From your description it sounds like there is flex or deflection in the fence causing the error with the squareness. The tool should be held in place with one hand on the other supporting and plunging the tool. If the tool is held at back near the plug-it cord you can reduce any deflection. If the issue is an out of square fence without deflection then calling Festool service may be worthwhile.

The fence height slippage issue is a problem with some of the old pin style models. The new style Domino with the paddles has been redesigned and the problem has been fixed. The fence height slippage is one issue that is a real problem for some users, Festool suggests really cranking down on the locking lever and this seems to work for most people. Another problem is the fence not locking perfectly parallel to the cutter. A tool that costs as much as the Domino it shouldn't have these kinds of problems. Now, I have no idea how wide spread these problems are. Maybe they are rare, maybe not. Discussion that makes people of these potential problems is good....to a point. Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to go directly to the company.

Now, to comment on problems with extra wide mortises and the out of square sides of the base that causes a problem with your jig. To help give some perspective, you are using the Domino outside of its intended use. Well, it's hard to complain about a tool that doesn't work as it wasn't intended to. In fairness to you, this forum is filled with creative new uses of these tools beyond their intended uses.

I'd like to add that Peter is completely right about calling Festool with your problems. No one wants your Festool products to work for you more than Festool. Discussion is good as long as it tempered with common sense and fair, constructive criticism.

I'd like to wrap up with this advice on the Domino for anyone reading this. First do research, read the Rick and Jerry's manuals and this forum before you buy. When you've made your purchase use the Domino right away, put it through its paces. If a question or problem comes up you will be able to resolve it before your 30 day no questions asked return period is up.        

 

[Brice Burrell]

I just ordered a Domino, and I'm now having second thoughts.  I would expect a machine that costs a mint would perform PERFECTLY right out of the box.  A defective fence or any misalignment should not be an issue.  Aren't they tested for quality of cut before leaving the factory if this is an issue? I've saved a long time for this purchase and I'll be very upset if I have issues with the Domino.  I've never purchased a tool and not had it work as promised in the literature.  Reading these posts is not what I would expect of Festool tools.

Kfitzsimons, this perfectly understandable. That said the Domino is a very precise tool, even a small user error can cause a problem with alignment and this is most of the problem. With the rehashing of know problems (and some of them have already been fixed) makes it seem as though the problems are much wider spread than they really are. Putting the time in learning the proper technique is critical. And remember you've got 30 day to return it if you are unhappy.

 

[MarkF]

I've had a similar issue and found that changing my plunging hand position and slowing down...waaaay down helped quite a bit.  I was rocking the fence off the surface slightly when I plunged the bit.  The big bits really put torque on the junction between the fence and the workpiece and can pull everything out of line.   I changed hand positions and started plunging from the end of the tool near the Plug-it connector versus holding it up near the switch.  Worked for me...maybe worth a shot?