Domino Upgrade

[Petey83]

pondering a potential upgrade from my DF500 to a DF700.... I will say now please read this with a hobbiest hat on (albeit one with more money for Festool than sense) as opposed to a trade user.

I have had the DF500 just under a year and its done a few cabinet builds for me and as couple of boxes. Looking ahead to this year i am hoping to have a workshop when i move house which will mean the need get a proper workbench. The quickets options i have is to buy one which is then followed by  buying a DF700 and making one the easier way and lastly using traditional methods to make one which will obviously take me longer.

After that build i ant to build a garden table and hopefully a new dining table for the new house but not sure if a D700 would be needed for this??

I don't have any other big projects planned but you never know.

So i have got to thinking should i look to sell my DF500 but keep the cutters and domino assortment and then buy a DF700 plus the 2 assortment systainers and then order the DF500 cutter adaptor from Seneca in the US, Keep the DF500 and buy the DF700 as well and take some comfort in knowing the DF700 plus timber will likely come in at same as a decent pre built Sjobergs bench or do i just stick with the DF500 and use that for the build if i try doubling or tripling up on dominos per joint?

 

[bobfog]

The DF700 isn't an upgrade from the DF500, anymore than a lump hammer is an upgrade from a pin hammer, they're just different tools. The Seneca adapter on the DF700 is a compromise like trying to hammer a pin in with the lump hammer.

The DF700 spins more slowly and has more torque than the DF500 as such the smaller cutters don't cut as efficiently on the 700 as they do the 500 and are more prone to snapping because of the torque and the heavier tool being more likely to exert pressure/leverage on the cutter.

If you've "got more money for Festool than sense", by the time you sell the DF500 for second hand money, import the Seneca adapter and have bits snapping on you more often, wouldn't it just be better to buy the DF700 and keep the DF500 as well?

 

[Petey83]

i probably should of worded it that i have less money than required but more money than sense for festool  [embarassed] In essence i go without other things that maybe i should not as i have a thing for buying Festool (and tools in general) Mainly i just hate trying to do a job or make something and not having exactly what i need to get it done - not one for bodging a job or make do and mend approach unfortunately for my wallet.

that aside I think you have answered my real question which now i think about it was "dose the Seneca adapter work as well" as i had it as more a compromise in the back of my mind just because eh machine is so much bigger its not bging to be as easy to maneuver when doing face frames etc etc

 

[Jamestoolie]

i probably should of worded it that i have less money than required but more money than sense for festool  [embarassed] In essence i go without other things that maybe i should not as i have a thing for buying Festool (and tools in general) Mainly i just hate trying to do a job or make something and not having exactly what i need to get it done - not one for bodging a job or make do and mend approach unfortunately for my wallet.

that aside I think you have answered my real question which now i think about it was "dose the Seneca adapter work as well" as i had it as more a compromise in the back of my mind just because eh machine is so much bigger its not bging to be as easy to maneuver when doing face frames etc etc

Do you have the necessary skill set and tools to construct a work bench with traditional joinery?

 

[Petey83]

i have some of both i guess.... I have some old made in Sheffield mortice chisels that i picked up on the bay but have never got round to cleaning them up and learning how to use them as i use the domino or on occasion a router and mitre saw to make mortice and tennons.

I could probably do it with a set of plans and enough time as I've manged most things elf taught so far.

 

[Kev]

Do you have the necessary skill set and tools to construct a work bench with traditional joinery?

If not it'd be a great way to develop the skills ! [wink]

I'm a "hobby guy" and I have both Dominos .. I think they complement each other and wouldn't part with either.

You don't have to go full on traditional. You could go the routed mortise path and still use floating tenons of whatever size you like. You just need to make a few appropriate jigs.

 

[jbasen]

I am a hobbyist and have taken the exact route you are talking about.  I have a the 700, the seneca bit adapter, along with the 1/2" and 3/4" seneca plates for joining thin stock.  This setup has worked very well for me.  It has truly been a single machine that does it all.  I haven't had any issues running the smaller bits on the 700. 

That being said I'm not using this machine every day building cabinets for customers.  If I were doing that I expect I would have trouble with the smaller bits.  But as a hobbyist who uses the machine periodically for specific projects, for me, it has been a great way to go.

 

[stvrowe]

I have both and also would not part with either.  I use the 500 well over 90% of the time a domino is used and actually prefer it over the 700.  The 700 is used only when large or deep mortises is required.  If you feel the need to get a 700, don't sell your 500 first.  Try the 700 for the first 30 days and then decide which (or both) is best for your applications.  If funds to get a 700 rely on the sale of the 500 first, you are on your own on that one.

 

[nclemmons]

Check out benchcrafted.com and their plans and hardware and consider a proper bench build.

The skills will raise your game and it's something you will use and admire for 20 plus years. 

This thread might help -http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/woodw...benchcrafted-split-top-roubo-bench-build.html

I own the 500 but would not 'trade' it for a 700.  Different tools.

 

[Nat X]

I've plowed thousands of 4mm Domino holes in day-long marathon sessions with my 700/Seneca adaptor and have never snapped a single cutter.

 

[Kev]

I have both and also would not part with either.  I use the 500 well over 90% of the time a domino is used and actually prefer it over the 700.  The 700 is used only when large or deep mortises is required.  If you feel the need to get a 700, don't sell your 500 first.  Try the 700 for the first 30 days and then decide which (or both) is best for your applications.  If funds to get a 700 rely on the sale of the 500 first, you are on your own on that one.

An upgraded 500 would see me swapping old for new as I do like some of the 700's refinements.

The new Domino connection system is another good excuse for a 700 [wink]

 

[grbmds]

If you want the experience of constructing a bench using traditional joinery, then you should do it. It would teach you a lot and, because it is what you want to do, the completed bench would always be something special to you. However, I built a very sturdy and heavy workbench using threaded rods to tie the various members together. I believe I took the idea from an article in Fine Woodworking. I have never been sorry. The bench is solid, completely out of maple, and has a set of cabinets underneath. I saved time using this method and it could be disassembled if I ever moved. This was, of course, long before the Domino existed. While the safer course would be to use the larger 700 dominos, I would  guess that you could find a way to use multiples of the largest DF500 dominos to make a very strong bench.

I personally wouldn't take that route of selling the 500, buying the 700, and using the Seneca adapter set to adapt the 700 to the 500 bits. As others have said, the 700 and 500 are 2 different tools and made for use in projects of much different scale. The other thing to consider is that, the use of the adapter set with the 700 probably voids the Festool warranty. Also, since the smallest Domino bits are not made to be used with the more powerful 700, more stress will be put on the smaller bits. I'm sure people use  the adapter set everyday and Seneca does make fine products, but I believe you should use the right tool for the job/ In my mind, using the 700 for joinery in small projects is not the right tool for that job. I know others disagree, but I would find the 700 cumbersome on small projects and harder to use for those.

In the end, it's always worth it to own the right tool. In this case, it might mean that you wait awhile to get the 700 and work up to it.

 

[Holmz]

If you want the experience of constructing a bench using traditional joinery, then you should do it. It would teach you a lot and, because it is what you want to do, the completed bench would always be something special to you. However, I built a very sturdy and heavy workbench using threaded rods to tie the various members together. I believe I took the idea from an article in Fine Woodworking. I have never been sorry. The bench is solid, completely out of maple, and has a set of cabinets underneath. I saved time using this method and it could be disassembled if I ever moved. ...
...

It sounds good to me:
You probably could have used 1/4 dowels to prevent shear.
Having the threaded rod puts just about all the wood in compression which is means there is little to go wrong in the joints.
And you can pull it apart is you need to.

Do you have a picture of it?

 

[grbmds]

If you want the experience of constructing a bench using traditional joinery, then you should do it. It would teach you a lot and, because it is what you want to do, the completed bench would always be something special to you. However, I built a very sturdy and heavy workbench using threaded rods to tie the various members together. I believe I took the idea from an article in Fine Woodworking. I have never been sorry. The bench is solid, completely out of maple, and has a set of cabinets underneath. I saved time using this method and it could be disassembled if I ever moved. ...
...

It sounds good to me:
You probably could have used 1/4 dowels to prevent shear.
Having the threaded rod puts just about all the wood in compression which is means there is little to go wrong in the joints.
And you can pull it apart is you need to.

Do you have a picture of it?

These are pictures (not great I admit). The one shows the threaded rod connection for the sides and the dark one was supposed to show the threaded rods along the length but really only shows how the top was attached - only with table top clips mainly to hold it in position. Its weight helps keep in on the supports. I might have tried Dominos if the Dominos existed at the time, but this worked well and its solid. Won't win any joinery awards though. I can't find the original reference I used for the threaded rod idea, but there are a couple of references on finewoodworking.com; one to a bench by Lonnie Bird and another using threaded rods similar to how I did it by Garret Hack. I found that the important part of using rods was to make sure they are surrounded by a dado/groove so that, when they are tightened they don't flex as even 1/2" steel rods 5'+ will do. So, they essentially have to be buried on 3 sides in the cross members.

 

[Holmz]

Thanks [member=19734]grbmds[/member]

 

[AndyUK]

I'm not going to try to persuade or dissuade you from purchasing the Domino xl Petey83.
But if you a considering making a decent work bench I would highly recommend you buy, beg, steal or borrow a copy of the Chris Schwarz Workbench book.
It shows how to simply construct a workbench by laminating the stock into sections.
By using the method, if you have accurately planed stock you will not have to cut a joint (in the practical sense).
And you will end up with traditional mortise and tenon joints to produce a workbench that's strong enough to last a lifetime.

 

[jacko9]

Petey,

Get the 700 and keep your 500 since you will use and enjoy both if you have the resources financially.  I have both and I won't give-up either and I also have the Seneca adapters for that special occasion since I'm a hobby woodworker with the necessary resources to indulge myself with great tools.  Someday, my sons or others will enjoy these tools but for now I enjoy every day in my shop building whatever suits my fancy.

Jack

 

[Petey83]

seems the consensus is to keep the 500 and buy the 700 if i want it.

good idea to buy a copy of Chris Schwarz book.

think either way i will be better off building one and spending the savings on a tool whether it be the DF700 or not