domino with stop pins or domino with stop latches?

waho6o9 said:
Which is the new model and which do you prefer?  Any and all comments welcomed. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the Festool Owners Group!

The first model had round metal pins, whilst the newer model had plastic flat-sided flaps/stops/paddles.

Many people don't bother using either kind of stop, and prefer just to mark there the tenons are to go with a pencil. Of those that use them, some people prefer the flaps of the new model, but I think there is a slight overall preference for the metal pins of the old model.

There's been a lot of discussion on the subject of "which is best?", and if you use the Search facility at the top left of the screen, you'll find many posts about it.

In the meantime, here are a few discussions to get you going...

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/domino-registration-pins-useful/
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/some-new-domino-information/ (this has a photo of both types)
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/domino-df-500-which-one/
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/new-style-domino/ (this has a photo of both types)

Forrest

 
Jimbo, I didn't realize you were a member of this forum when you emailed me earlier today, but that's because I see you had just signed up two days ago.  Sooooo......
[welcome]
When I answered your email this morning, I had assumed that you located me because you saw my name in the Festool-USA version of the Domino manual, but now, I am not sure of that. Therefore, if you have not seen the new manual that discusses the new version of the Domino fence, it is located at http://www.waterfront-woods.com/festool/. Among other things, this manual will explain how to lock the "Stop Dogs" (I think that's what I called them in the manual) down so they do not stick out when you do not wish to use them. This feature is the main reason why I like the dogs versus the pins.

I have also written a lengthy discussion about the changes they made on the new fence, but I don't recall where on the Internet it is located. I am pretty sure it is not located on this forum, either that, or it could have been one of the postings that got deleted a while back.

At this time, I cannot recall all of the changes made to the new fence, so I will hit a few of them off the top of my head. There were actually quite a few, but it would take a lengthy search of my emails with Festool to track them all down.
  • Stop Dogs...obviously. To me, the benefit is that they can be disabled when not used.
  • The grind on the original clamping surfaces was so smooth that it the could slip. The new fence uses a coarser grind on the mating aluminum faces.
  • The new sight glass includes a magnified edge.
  • I have forgotten now, but something about a clamping part was beefed up to prevent breakage.
I know there were a bunch more improvements, but now I cannot recall very many of them. Most people in these discussions focus on the ovious change between the pins and dogs, but don't realize that there were a whole bunch of other improvements that were much more subtle.
 
Another change was that the raised alignment V above the cutter was removed.

Rick,
What is the difference in the 2 versions of the PDF files? 

Kapex_KS120.pdf

Kapex_KS120-print.pdf 

Chris
 
The one labeled "print" wasn't compressed to reduce the file size. There is not much difference in resolution, but it might be noticeable with a high quality printer.
 
You forgot to add how difficult it could be (depending on the unit) to move the pins for alignment.
 
I specifically ordered the old model Domino (with pins) because it was a) cheaper, and b) I see the metal pins as a superior system than the plastic tabs. 

Another user on FOG linked these, and since getting them I am a huge fan. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Narrow-Stock-Spacers-for-Festool-Domino-Set-of-5_W0QQitemZ270509498748QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efb9f617c

Basically, these imitate the no-measure approach that the pins/tabs allow for placement of the Domino mortise, but allows you to vary the spacing from the reference edge.  They are very precise, have a magnet that holds them in place, and take about 5 seconds to take out of the ziploc bag and stick onto a pin.  Mortise one slot, put the spacer on the opposite pin and mortise the other workpiece.  Unbelievably simply and useful.  However, they can only be used with the 5mm pin version of the Domino.  Not cheap, but a worthwhile accessory.

These alone might influence me to buy the pin model, if I were buying again.  The difference in price basically offset the other, less visible changes/improvements.

If I had gotten the tab model, Rick's MGS accessory would be on the top of my list.
 
Wood_Junkie said:
If I had gotten the tab model, Rick's MGS accessory would be on the top of my list.
Click to expand...

Meaning that you wouldn't get the MGS if getting the new style model.  I don't understand why, and have actually spent many hours over the past month reading on the pros and cons of both types, and is the first I see a comment reflecting this position/opinion.  I'm trying to figure out which model to buy before the pin styles are no longer available anywhere.

I also have another question for all in comparing the two....is there any preference of the old versus the new in using the new 4mm cutter?
 
The domino was my first festool along with the CT33e.  It was just released so I have the round pins.  Personally, I have never used the pins.  It's just too easy to hit a pencil line.  Further, I've never seen an application that would require that many domino's! Even in a panel one ever few inches seems excessive.  I tend to layout the locations hit where they are needed and done.  Now I have to say I absolutely love how easy floating tenons have become.  I cut one side to the tight setting and the mating face to the next widest setting and that way I have a bit of wiggle room to make it all come together perfect.  This piece was all Domino's
 
bonesbr549,

WOW Really nice piece!  I especially like the glass you chose and the bead board back.  Well done!
 
Thanks for the comments.  The glass is called seed glass. It's made like it was in the colonial times hand rolled.  It has air bubbles and everything.  My wife does stained glass and that was her addition to the piece.  You can't tell from the pics, but the glass was cut from a single pane, so the waves flow left to right through the two doors.  Really sets it off, and I imagine once that cherry darkens it will set it off.  Take care. 
 
Kevin D. said:
Wood_Junkie said:
If I had gotten the tab model, Rick's MGS accessory would be on the top of my list.
Click to expand...

Meaning that you wouldn't get the MGS if getting the new style model.  I don't understand why, and have actually spent many hours over the past month reading on the pros and cons of both types, and is the first I see a comment reflecting this position/opinion.  I'm trying to figure out which model to buy before the pin styles are no longer available anywhere.

I also have another question for all in comparing the two....is there any preference of the old versus the new in using the new 4mm cutter?
Click to expand...

On the first point, I assume you have it backwards.  If I had gotten the tabbed version of the Domino, the semi-circular spacers would not be usable, and Rick's MSG attachment would be on the top of my list.  Having gotten the Pin model of the Domino, (the MSG wasn't yet available), and so I got those semi-circular spacers.  That does not mean the MSG is not a worthwhile accessory.  But it is something you attach (and leave attached), so I'll have to evaluate that.

The spacers and the MSG do very similar things:  Give you a repeatable, custom/semi-custom offset from the cutter, which is different than the standard 37mm of the pins or tabs.  Rick's does it to the Nth degree, with a very, very high level of precision.  The spacers do it about the same thing, but only for the 5 sizes, but the Nth degree of simplicity.

RE your second question:
I read on another thread that the older (pin) model of the Domino needed some "adjusting" in order to allow the 4mm cutter to get close enough to the fence (Read: adjusting = filing something down).  IIRC, the minimum fence to cutter offset is 10mm on that model, which doesn't allow you to center a 4mm tenon in 1/2" stock.

I'll search around and link that thread if/when I find it.
Edit:  There were two threads:

>> This one talks about the thing to file down...
http://festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/trouble-with-domino/

>> JEP has a good idea in this latter thread, about creating an additional stop on the fence gauge block.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/4-mm-dominoes-how-many-use-them-and-for-what/

Regarding bonesbr549's post:  Using the pins/tabs just eliminates *the need* for any measuring or layout.  If your workpiece is more than, say 50mm wide, you can just reference a side and mortise.  No layout necessary.  If your stock is 4" or more, you can just reference off both sides and mortise.  Bam, 4 Domino slots (2 in each piece) without even picking up a tape measure or pencil.  I totally get, and agree with you, that using layout marks is super easy and is very precise with the Domino.  But try it a few times using just the pins/tabs...  The Domino, above and beyond anything else, is a *timesaving* joinery tool.  Skipping the layout marks for simple joinery is just another feature, IMO.

bonesbr549:  That is a *truly* beautiful piece.  Thanks for explaining the glass details, I'll bet that is really neat.  I think it's awesome you and your wife collaborate on projects and the result is a merging of both of your skills.  Very cool.
 
Wood_Junkie said:
.....On the first point, I assume you have it backwards.  If I had gotten the tabbed version of the Domino, the semi-circular spacers would not be usable, and Rick's MSG attachment would be on the top of my list.  Having gotten the Pin model of the Domino, (the MSG wasn't yet available), and so I got those semi-circular spacers.  That does not mean the MSG is not a worthwhile accessory.  But it is something you attach (and leave attached), so I'll have to evaluate that........
Click to expand...

I don't believe this true. The MSG can be easily removed and reinstalled perfectly indexed. Maybe Rick and confirm.
 
Brice Burrell said:
Wood_Junkie said:
.....On the first point, I assume you have it backwards.  If I had gotten the tabbed version of the Domino, the semi-circular spacers would not be usable, and Rick's MSG attachment would be on the top of my list.  Having gotten the Pin model of the Domino, (the MSG wasn't yet available), and so I got those semi-circular spacers.  That does not mean the MSG is not a worthwhile accessory.  But it is something you attach (and leave attached), so I'll have to evaluate that........
Click to expand...

I don't believe this true. The MSG can be easily removed and reinstalled perfectly indexed. Maybe Rick and confirm.
Click to expand...

Brice you are correct it can be removed.  My point was more that it is not "instantly" removable, like the magnetic spacers.  I had (erroneously) recalled it being attached by screws and you had to adjust/center it each time.  Re-reading the descriptive overview, I see that it is attached by thumbs-screws, and I now see it has centering plates so the positioning can be easily re-set.  That does make it more convenient to attach, use, remove, etc.  My apologies for an inaccurate description in my previous post.

Another correction:  Rick's awesome creation is called the "MGS", not MSG.
 
Wood_Junkie said:
Brice you are correct it can be removed.  My point was more that it is not "instantly" removable, like the magnetic spacers.  I had (erroneously) recalled it being attached by screws and you had to adjust/center it each time.  Re-reading the descriptive overview, I see that it is attached by thumbs-screws, and I now see it has centering plates so the positioning can be easily re-set.  That does make it more convenient to attach, use, remove, etc.  My apologies for an inaccurate description in my previous post.

Another correction:  Rick's awesome creation is called the "MGS", not MSG.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we better get our info straight, you know how persnickety Rick can be. ;D For the record everyone, it's the Multi-position Guide Stop or the MGS as Wood_Junkie correctly pointed out.
 
Brice Burrell said:
Wood_Junkie said:
Brice you are correct it can be removed.  My point was more that it is not "instantly" removable, like the magnetic spacers.  I had (erroneously) recalled it being attached by screws and you had to adjust/center it each time.  Re-reading the descriptive overview, I see that it is attached by thumbs-screws, and I now see it has centering plates so the positioning can be easily re-set.  That does make it more convenient to attach, use, remove, etc.  My apologies for an inaccurate description in my previous post.

Another correction:  Rick's awesome creation is called the "MGS", not MSG.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we better get our info straight, you know how persnickety Rick can be. ;D For the record everyone, it's the Multi-position Guide Stop or the MGS as Wood_Junkie correctly pointed out.
Click to expand...

Hey, if it wasn't for being persnickety, you would have to readjust the MGS every time.  [poke]

As for the "MSG", I didn't notice it until Wood_Junkie pointed it out....yes, contrary to many reports, I am human and not an alien after all.  [tongue]

Those disks are very clever, but to me, the fact that you must remove them between cuts is what I didn't like about the concept. In my workshop, I have a hard enough time keeping track of where I set major tools and stuff, so those disks would be lost in a heartbeat.  [scared]

The other thing that is a little less obvious about them, is that you can use them only to get closer than the pins, but not farther from the pins.

Since some people reading this thread might not know what the MGS Guide is, I'll add a thumbnail image of it.

[attachthumb=#]
 
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