Domino XL 700 with Seneca adapter warranty issue

[Doug S]

Just seen this on a UK forum, thought some here might be interested.
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/warning-about-using-seneca-adapter-with-xl700-domino-t103109.html

 

[Doug S]

Just giving this a bump as surprised nobody commented.

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

Yep I knew this.  The truth behind it is use the tool what it's designed for.  Need smaller dominos use the 500,  need larger dominos use the 700.  The adapter is a good idea but your adapting a tool for a task it's not designed for. 

 

[Llap Goch]

I am sure that Seneca make superb products ( I haven't seen one let alone owned one) but I do admire their ability to out-Festool their price/value ratio. I know it is an adapter, I am sure it is beautifully machined and I am sure that those who have bought it are delighted with it.....but on a forum which has several contributors who question Festools prices, I cannot recall someone remarking how a bolt of metal, machined at both ends and balanced to exacting tolerances (or not), costs about 10% of the cost of a Domino XL 700. Or at least in the UK it does.

Or to put it another way, at £75 delivered, the Seneca 700 XL adapter is 13% of the cost of a brand new Domino DF 500, in a Systainer, with a D5 cutter and a very comprehensive 3 year warranty package. Tough one that, the bolt or the Domino set.

As for warranty problems associated with a non-authorised part fitted, I can imagine the reaction of my Mercedes dealer should the transmission disintegrate, or go out of synch, on my car because I had fitted a non-authorised tuning module onto the ECU that controls the finely balanced power train, developed over years of research.

I imagine their reply might be fairly succinct and include a clear reference to sex and travel. But I could be wrong.

 

[Paul G]

Hmmm, me thinks Festool would rather folks buy 2 Dominos instead of one. Just sayin'.

That being said, I have a 500 and wouldn't mind a 700 if they did another promotion. So they would then succeed in getting me to buy 2 Dominos.

 

[SS Teach]

I can't think of any manufacturer that wouldn't void their warranty whenever any non oem part is attached or added. If a manufacturer has a specific licensing agreement with another firm they probably would. But there would most likely be very specific parameters. This just seems to be standard industry practice. By the way would it be difficult for Festool to figure out if you attached a Seneca device to their XL? Not really, many who have posted to FOG or other sites. Do a simple search you can find out who did.

 

[promark747]

I can't speak to the engineering issue (if there is one), but I'd think there would have been more reported cases by now if there was a known problem.  It's not as if these things just came out.

 

[grbmds]

Doubt there are any "known" issues with the adapter and I suspect that they work well. I would think they are more likely to cause breaking of the smaller bits since it would be easy to put a lot of stress on the small bits with the large 700XL. I also believe Seneca makes great products, although really haven't found the need to use any of them as the Domino as it is sold really does what it is designed to do. Festool certainly has no obligation to warranty a product which is being used in different way than designed or has an unapproved accessory installed. While I'm sure Festool would rather swell 2 tools than just one, the two Dominos are made to do 2 different levels of work. The 700 is meant for very large project and the 500 can do a wide range of smaller and medium-sized projects. I personaly would find the 700 cumbersome for small projects. The 500 is just the right size for those.

 

[bobfog]

On the one hand, I don't like the adapters, I own both Domino machines as using the 500 bits on the 700 is a compromise in terms of ergonomics and handling. However, it's BS that the adapters are causing gearbox failure/misalignment.

Failing to fix the Kapex, denying warranty claims for fictitious reasons... I wonder if Festool are in financial trouble!?!

 

[Birdhunter]

I bought the Senaca adapter even though I own both a 500 and a 700. I've never used the adapter and won't now that I know the warranty would be violated.

I don't think the Festool position is unreasonable. Perhaps, Senaca could ask Festool to test the adapter and see if it could actually harm the gearbox. Rather than having uninformed opinions, there could be rigorous test results available.

 

[Phil Beckley]

Hi
It comes down to being a third party accessory - the 500 and the 700 are both designed with certain parameters along with the cutters for both machines. This is not an unusual stance with third party business.
  I am not an engineer by any means either.....
rg
Phil

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Here's a little tidbit of information that very few people know, including Festool. Hasn't anyone ever wondered why the adapter has such a non-Seneca-like name "RTS-500"? That was Ryan and Ron Wenner's behind-the-scenes "thank you" to me for giving them the full detailed design of the adapter.

You see, they had started using my local machine supplier as their own a few months earlier. During an office visit to my supplier, I noticed Seneca was contemplating designing the adapter. Except I had already completed the design for myself months earlier. I could have been in production and on the market within days, but instead, I decided to turn the whole thing over to my long time friends at Seneca.

The thing is, I seriously doubt that Festool would have dared to suggest the adapter was causing warranty issues if they had realized it was actually my design. But I doubt that this is coming from Festool corporate, but simply a service technician not familiar with the actual engineering behind the DF700 nor the RTS-500.

From an engineering standpoint, the RTS-500 isn't adapting the tool to use the smaller cutters. It is adapting the smaller cutters to use the tool. That may sound like a trivial distinction, but to an engineer, it is significant. It also means that it is not the cause of warranty claims.

 

[Phil Beckley]

Here's a little tidbit of information that very few people know, including Festool. Hasn't anyone ever wondered why the adapter has such a non-Seneca-like name "RTS-500"? That was Ryan and Ron Wenner's behind-the-scenes "thank you" to me for giving them the full detailed design of the adapter.

You see, they had started using my local machine supplier as their own a few months earlier. During an office visit to my supplier, I noticed Seneca was contemplating designing the adapter. Except I had already completed the design for myself months earlier. I could have been in production and on the market within days, but instead, I decided to turn the whole thing over to my long time friends at Seneca.

The thing is, I seriously doubt that Festool would have dared to suggest the adapter was causing warranty issues if they had realized it was actually my design. But I doubt that this is coming from Festool corporate, but simply a service technician not familiar with the actual engineering behind the DF700 nor the RTS-500.

From an engineering standpoint, the RTS-500 isn't adapting the tool to use the smaller cutters. It is adapting the smaller cutters to use the tool. That may sound like a trivial distinction, but to an engineer, it is significant. It also means that it is not the cause of warranty claims.

....interesting bit of background information Rik. I am certainly not an engineer but as said it comes down to 3rd party accessories.
rg
Phil

 

[Rick Christopherson]

....interesting bit of background information Rik. I am certainly not an engineer but as said it comes down to 3rd party accessories.
rg
Phil

I didn't want to bring it up in my previous post, but the Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act prevents that very thing from happening. A warranty cannot be voided solely on the basis of using 3rd party accessories, unless that accessory can be shown to be the cause of the claim.

 

[bobfog]

....interesting bit of background information Rik. I am certainly not an engineer but as said it comes down to 3rd party accessories.
rg
Phil

I didn't want to bring it up in my previous post, but the Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act prevents that very thing from happening.

We actually have the same thing in the UK, I believe it's part of the sales of goods act where a manufacturer has to prove a third-party accessory/part caused the fault, not just maliciously blame it for the failure without proof.

 

[antss]

"but as said it comes down to 3rd party accessories."

"A warranty cannot be voided solely on the basis of using 3rd party accessories, unless that accessory can be shown to be the cause of the claim."

This should get interesting.

 

[bobfog]

"but as said it comes down to 3rd party accessories."

"A warranty cannot be voided solely on the basis of using 3rd party accessories, unless that accessory can be shown to be the cause of the claim."

This should get interesting.

Indeed... taken a few screen captures to preserve for future reference.

 

[RyWen]

Thank you to everyone who supports the Seneca Woodworking brand and brought this to our attention! We launched this company with the help and support of many forum members and believe it is important to address this issue on the forums. Your input is what helps us ensure we can develop high quality products and continue to meet your expectations.

As a manufacturer of aftermarket accessories, we are not affiliated with Festool and cannot speak for them on their warranty policies. At the time of this writing, we are not aware of any official Festool blanket statement concerning our products voiding their warranty.

We still have to offer the disclaimer in regards to warranty coverage, that our products should be "used at your own risk" as Festool's warranty policy is outside of our control and could always change in the future.

We took great care in engineering our cutter adapter so that the forces exerted on the Domino Xl / DF 700 using the DF 500 cutters with our adapter are less than the machine normally experiences when using the standard DF 700 cutters. We manufacture in the USA using the highest quality materials, processes, and quality checks.

Our cutter adapter has been on the market for nearly four years, in daily use by both hobbyists and production shops, and this is the first instance that's been reported to us where our product is alleged to have caused a warranty issue.  It seems very unlikely to us that any kind of gearbox/spindle issue could be directly caused by our adapter.

As part of our due diligence, we will review our engineering methodology to ensure we continue to meet our commitment to quality.

-Ryan Wenner
Creative Persistence LLC / Seneca Woodworking 

 

[chrisrosenb]

It seems that there is a very simple solution to this. When you send in a tool for warranty service, do not include third party accessories with it. Do not tell the company that you were using third party accessories.
Problem solved.

 

[DB10]

It seems that there is a very simple solution to this. When you send in a tool for warranty service, do not include third party accessories with it. Do not tell the company that you were using third party accessories.
Problem solved.

My thoughts exactly and I suspect over the years a few XL 700 machines have been sent back to Festool for repair for what ever reason that have been used with the adaptor and no one is the wiser and they were fixed without any drama because it's hard to prove that a third party's adaptor was the cause of any failure.