Dust Categories?

[stevenh]

I copied off from a different forum.

Staubklasse L and Staubklasse M are German standards relating to health in the workplace from an organization called BIA.

To achieve Class L an extractor must not allow more than 1% of extracted dust to pass out of the filter to a "maximum allowable concentration" (MAK value) greater than 1 mg/m^3.

To achieve Class M an extractor must not allow more than 0.1% of extracted dust to pass out of the filter to a "maximum allowable concentration" (MAK value) greater than 0.1 mg/m^3.

There are several higher categories but Class H is generally the highest for normal trade use.

To achieve Class H an extractor must not allow more than 0.1% (can be as low as 0.005%) of extracted dust to pass out of the filter to a "maximum allowable concentration" (MAK value) less than than 0.1 mg/m^3.

Class L is suitable for general work.

Class M is specifically for mineral dust, man-made wood-based dust, oak and beech woods.

Class H is used with anything that is a known carcinogen or has known health related effects. (Lead, cadmium, asbestos etc.)

So the Festool CTL extractors are OK for more general work. If you are routing/sanding MDF or certain wood sorts (oak, beech etc.) then you must use the CTM series.

As far as I know all Festool extractors run-on for 5 sec after turning the tool off, mine does anyway!

Protool also have a few extractors including one going up to H class.

Festool 583493 CT 36 E Cleantex Dust Extractor is Class L.

http://www.acetoolonline.com/Festool-CT-36-HEPA-Dust-Extractor-583493-p/fes-583493.htm

They don't list the class for the other 3.

I'm wondering if anyone know about this?

 

[jonny round boy]

In europe, the festool vacs are available as either class L (eg CTL26) or class M (eg CTM26).

In the US, only the CTL versions are available, and Festool dropped the 'L', so you just have the CT26 instead of CTL26.

I think Festool do make (or at least, rebadge) some class H vacs, but I'm not 100% certain of that.

 

[jmbfestool]

Welcome!  [welcome]

Yes  I beat Alan to it! haahaa!

 

[stevenh]

Thanks for responding to my question.

So all US Festool Vac are Class L?

I find it intresting that it doesnt meet Germany standards for lead paint. (ClassH)

But in US it does meet the EPA standards of
0.3 microns with 99.97% efficiency.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Steven H,

Let me add a big Welcome to FOG.

Over the past few years there has been a whole lot of discussion about vac systems for legal removal of lead paint.

The USA regulators have yet to start a program to certify entire vac systems.

If you are in the business of dealing with hazardous material removal all of that should have been covered in your training classes.

If you want to get into a business where you will need a vac system with a higher certification than the current USA versions of the Festool CT extractors I strongly suggest you contact Shane Holland at Festool USA HQ. He is the designated contact between end users and Festool experts.

Festool USA is starting to sell the Midi and Mini vacs with new filter bags and HEPA filters standard, so those will meet the same standards as the CT26, CT36 and CT48.

 

[Frank-Jan]

Thanks for responding to my question.

So all US Festool Vac are Class L?

In the US the vacs come equipped as standard with the hepa filters, which is an optional accessory on the European models. (up until recently with the exception of the mini and midi vacs) 

 

[ccarrolladams]

Steven H,

It is entirely possible there is a major error in the data you originally quoted.

According to Festool information, for CTL dust extractors the HEPA filters are optional, not standard.

Since the CT22 and CT33 were introduced in North America they have included HEPA filters as standard, factory installed. This would seem to make them more like a CTM.

People say that I am especially concerned about the air quality in all work places I own. Therefore when I bought my first CT22 in January 2006, I questioned Festool USA executives carefully about the discharged air quality. Festool executives going back to those days still remember our discussions. Before I hired any woodworkers to help me I wanted to be sure my CT22 complied with all USA OSHA, California Industrial Safety Orders as well as the requirements of the City of Los Angeles Safety Orders.

Although no USA government department certifies complete industrial vac systems (just the HEPA filters themselves) all of the regulators I mention above assured me my CT22 met every requirement for working with solid lumber, plywood, MDF and even sanding plaster.

Abating and removing lead and asbestos are not within the scope of my work.

At this time in the USA there is mass confusion as to how to comply with broad laws until specific rules and regulations are formulated, written, published and litigated. Clearly for years there has been a need for some government department to certify complete vac systems, not just components of such systems.

 

[tbellemare]

I'm not certain, but I think our CT's that are equipped with HEPA filters would be consider class M in Europe.

When equipped with HEPA filters, they capture at least 99.97% of particulate down to .3 microns. I looked up the European standards once before to determine how the U.S. models ranked and I recall that they were considered class M.

I'll look into it again...

Tom

 

[tbellemare]

The definitions that I've found and recall from my last search, in Europe, are based on airborn concentrations and the maximum allowable exposure to contaminants in an 8 hour period (MAK values). They are typically measured in mg/m3.

From what I can tell, the lower limit of filtration for Dust Class M in Europe is much worse than our HEPA filters and the HEPA filter for the CTM's in Europe are the same as those for our CT (with no M).

Tom

 

[jonny round boy]

I'm not certain, but I think our CT's that are equipped with HEPA filters would be consider class M in Europe.

Tom,

I don't think they would - all the CTM models have an airflow sensor, that sounds an alarm if the airflow drops below the minimum level (ie if the bag/filter is blocked, or the bag full). I think that's a requirement for class M vacuums.

But you are probably correct about the filtration level with the HEPA filters being a higher spec.

 

[justinmcf]

You are correct Jonny.

And the price of that little electronic sensor is a bloody disgrace.

That's why I would never purchase an M class vacuum.

Justin.

 

[AlexThePalex]

The only difference between Festool class M and L vacs is the airflow sensor. The filters are exactly the same.

The USA HEPA filters are of a much higher spec than the European L & M filters.

Festool also make a couple of class H vacs, you can see them here, they're called the SR range of vacs. They're rebranded Nilfisk-Alto vacs.

 

[Alan m]

Welcome!  [welcome]

Yes  I beat Alan to it! haahaa!

[welcome] to the fog
good on ya jmb. i would have done it only my interweb is down. (on xtra vision pc now [eek])

 

[extiger]

There is a woodworker who used to post often on a number of forums. He frequently wrote for Fine Woodworking Magazine and, I think, wrote a book or two about the hazards of dust in the workplace and shop. He worked together with the medical department of some big East Coast university. The author I'm speaking of is Bill Pentz (sp?).

A lot of his findings were scary. And the lack of Federal standards in the US added to the fear factor. To sum up what he learned, the ultra fine dust in the region of .5 micron becomes carcinogenic and causes upper respiratory disease and failure. It passes through the permeable membranes of the lungs penetrates the blood stream. The size of the particles alone can cause cancer and emphysema. It doesn't have to be a toxic substance or a known cancerous species of wood.

Pentz designed a few of the leading cyclone dust collectors sold today (not shop vacs). And he published designs for home-built cyclone systems for the shop.

 

[jmbfestool]

Welcome!  [welcome]

Yes  I beat Alan to it! haahaa!

[welcome] to the fog
good on ya jmb. i would have done it only my interweb is down. (on xtra vision pc now [eek])

Excuses  [tongue]  Im going to make a game out of it I wanna make sure I always beat you to Welcoming a New Fog memeber! This is your first defeat and many more to come  [tongue] [tongue] [tongue]

JMB

 

[extiger]

By emphasizing the hazard of sub .5 micron particles, Pentz was in essence saying that all dust of larger size was more a nuisance than a health hazard. Dust collection is thus a housekeeping, rather than a health chore. For the most part. But the smaller particles disperse through the air and penetrate more places.

I used to consider the dusty haze in the air of woodshops a kind of cozy atmospheric. Now, I want to reach for my Hazmat suit. My Festool purchases were guided by the consideration for capturing the majority of dust at the cutter. Though I've never considered Festool shopvacs. Because of their cost. I went with Fein.

 

[ccarrolladams]

With all respect to the Bill Pentz (sp?) opinions and articles, the health and safety hazards of uncollected and controlled dust is more complex.

The HEPA filters supplied by Festool USA are rated to remove 99.99% of all particulate to 0.3 micron. So far, so good.

Traditionally there was a feeling that particulate larger than 0.5 microns was not a health issue. More recent thinking has a contrary view.

Even larger, coarse dust and chips that settle on floors tend to get ground to finer particulate from foot and tire traffic. In factories with approved dust collection systems, it is still common when collecting air samples to discover particulate finer than 0.3 microns even when the system is collecting such fine dust. Such super fine particulate does not remain near the floor unfortunately. It can and does float for several reasons, including suction from over head ventilation and even air cleaning systems. This upward movement of super fine particulates is problematic for workers because human nostrils point downward.

The other major safety hazard of chips and dust is explosion. Improved plant dust collection in woodworking industries has reduced the number of dust explosions each year in the USA. However, this is not much comfort to those injured by dust explosion.

When I was designing my new plant, which started production in August 2010, I knew the City of Burbank, CA required that dust collection blowers and containers be installed exterior to the plant and the collection containers be protected by automatic fire sprinklers. A very good friend of mine in another city has a marvelous exterior dust collection system with sprinklers. Unfortunately they suffered a fire. The sprinklers limited damage to the building, but cleaning up all that soaked dust took forever.

So I made a point of picking the brains of the good folks at GreCon, Inc up in Oregon. They are a leading vendor of spark detection and extinguishment systems. Inside the dust collection ducts there are sophisticated spark detectors. These are connected to the plant hazard alarm system, so they notify monitoring central and also sound a horn and make announcements over the sound system. This way operators can bring the machines to a halt to reduce adding dust as fuel. At an appropriate time a fine water mist is sprayed into the duct to extinguish those sparks. The sprinkler nozzles inside the ducts produce such a fine mist that the dust is virtually dry by the time it reaches the filter bags. Although it might seem counter-intuitive, the system does not shut down the dust collection blowers. It has been found damage is reduced by leaving the air flowing.

As of a few minutes ago when I started writing this, our spark suppression system has only activated during controlled tests. I hope this will still be so after I retire.

 

[Frank-Jan]

...
Festool also make a couple of class H vacs, you can see them here, they're called the SR range of vacs. They're rebranded Nilfisk-Alto vacs.

Of the SR vacs only the fourth model in the link is class H the others are class M (but do have interesting features like the EC motor or automatic filtercleaning).
With the new CT models (cleantex) there are also a few with class H link to CTH vacs
and there are ac models for the ctl and ctm with automatic filtercleaning.

 

[stevenh]

I think these US festool vacuums were never designed for RRP or lead paint work.
They are more wood dust vacuum.
When EPA new rule came out, its very vague.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I think these US festool vacuums were never designed for RRP or lead paint work.
They are more wood dust vacuum.

That is correct. The only Festool vac certified for such work in Europe is the SRH model I linked to above. And it's NAINA.