Elastolin Underlay

[jmbfestool]

I have laid a bit of oak flooring in my many many many years of carpentry  [tongue] and with different methods! Mainly variable lengths and widths (my favourite) looks nicest I think.    I started this topic because my plaster mate has just finished plastering my entire house top to bottom! Well its my turn to help him out!  Well he wants me to lay his oak flooring as one of the jobs in return! Well a joinery/carpenter told him glue it down best way sounds solid! I told him he should use Elastolin Underlay as I find thats the best way! So he is torn what to do!  I told him to come with me to my parents house and have a look at my parents lounge and hall. Well he said he trusts me and he will do Elastolin Underlay. I am just curious to what other people think on FOG.

I have used

elastolin underlay
Glued it down
Nailed it
screwed and pellet

Out off all them I think the best is Elastolin Underlay. It was the quickest and easiest and what I think is the best way.  I have been back to 3 off the flooring I laid with Elastolin one of them being my parents floor! NON of them creak and NON of them have gaps in the flooring or any other bad things what can happen lol   The boards ranged in width from 80mm to 150mm wide and length from 300mm to 2.8m solid oak.

Secret nailing through the tongue I do not like I found that some parts of the flooring creaked and is not as quick.

Screwed and Pellet! Well it was ordered by the client and the Foreman insisted on it!  I had to screw the boards down to the concrete flooring every 900mm apart and two screws ever time.  WELLL!   It took AGES!  SDS plug and screw and then oak pellets with glue then chisel off then sand.  After all that 2 months later the floor had gaps every where!!!!!!! So not good!!!

Glue!  TO be honest I was only a apprentice so I was more watching than doing that! I have not glued flooring down my self since! Soo its just a spectators opinion! I didnt think it was that quick!  You have to prepare the floor sealing it for the glue and its can get messy.  The floor did show gaps couple months down the line but they where acceptable.

I was just wondering what every one els thinks is the best way of laying solid oak flooring on concrete!   When I lay flooring on joists I always have a base floor under first so I will fix chipboard flooring first.

JMB

 

[woodguy7]

JMB

9 times out of 10 i am always laying over another wooden floor.  Never glued to concrete but have used the underlay a few times with good results & would use it again.
I am surprised you have creaking when you nail down, what nails are you using ?

The procedure i use is,
1- Go over the entire floor screwing down any loose boards
2- Sand any high spots that could cause the boards to rock
3- Staple down a breather membrane or building paper to the entire floor
4- Screw down the first row, making sure the screws are under the skirting
    (i always cut the drywall slightly higher than the flooring to allow expansion)
5- I nail through the feather with 50mm x 15 gauge nails from my AIR NAILER  [tongue]
6- I then use my flooring nailer which puts in 50mm cleat nails specially for flooring.  The type you thump till the plunger comes back up, not the air one.
7- At the end of the room i hand nail with the flooring cleats, pre boring first
8- The last row can be face nailed under the skirting, cutting the drywall back for the expansion again.

I only ever put glue (pva) on the ends of the boards, never on the long sides.

Right or not, its the way that works for me & never had a call back  [smile]

Interesting to hear others thoughts,

Woodguy.

 

[Deansocial]

i have secret nailed and glued(both types- spreader and gun applied) I prefer gun applied glue myself, seen 3 elastalon laid floors all failed so not a fan, but it might be down to the fitting and temperature, humidity or acclimatising the floor before hand and not the product

 

[jmbfestool]

Alan,

I have not seen any one glue the ends before that's new to me.  What benefits do you get for glueing the ends together?

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

i have secret nailed and glued(both types- spreader and gun applied) I prefer gun applied glue myself, seen 3 elastalon laid floors all failed so not a fan, but it might be down to the fitting and temperature, humidity or acclimatising the floor before hand and not the product

When you say failed what failed?!   What happened to the floor?

I know with my parents floor for some reason last year my parents floor expanded quite abit! When it was heavy raining for ages. I had screwed the first row under the skirting like Woodguy said he does then I let the elastolin underlay hold the rest. Well when it expands it of coarse pushes the floor way from the screwed side to the other end and it had moved 30mm or more I know this because their is a small paint line around the door frame which moved away from the frame about 30mm.  It has returned back with no gabs in the floor.  Cus the elastolin under lay is like a large elastic band under the floor and is constantly pulling the floor together so when the floor shrinks you should get no gaps.    I can not see a glued flooring being able to withstand that much movement and then allow the floor the return back with no gaps and the same with nailing.

JMB

JMB

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Secret nail [big grin] [big grin]

 

[woodguy7]

JMB

I believe it is standard practice to glue the end buts.  there is very little movement lengthwise on a board so gluing the ends keeps them together without restricting movement.  Obviously you cant glue the long grain as it needs to move independently, as you know on your mums house.

Maybee i am the only one gluing the ends ?

Cheers, Woodguy.

 

[jmbfestool]

JMB

I believe it is standard practice to glue the end buts.  there is very little movement lengthwise on a board so gluing the ends keeps them together without restricting movement.  Obviously you cant glue the long grain as it needs to move independently, as you know on your mums house.

Maybee i am the only one gluing the ends ?

Cheers, Woodguy.

I, I know you dont glue along the length and I see glueing the ends keeps them together so never thought their was a problem with the ends I have never seen any one glue the ends nor have I ever been told so its new to me! I wasnt saying it wrong or anything just was curious. I dont think ill be glueing the ends still though.

Any way! Where are these stairs! [tongue]

JMB

 

[Guy Ashley]

Woodguy

No you are not the only one who glues the ends of solid wood flooring! Maybe its just us old gits that do it this way!  [tongue]

I have not used Elastolin Underlay before, the adhesive I have used in the past, although haven't done one for a year or so, is Rewmar MS Polymer Flexible wood flooring adhesive. Is this the same sort of stuff?

 

[Deansocial]

yeah ms polymers are the way to go,

they failed in the way that they expanded so much that i had to break in via a window to get the door open on 1. the other way a kitchen going into a utility and aload of joints came apart in the doorway. this was before the kitchen was fitted so its not water or anything like that. The last just shurnk too much and moved from under 1 skirting this happened because the other side of the room had a heavy sofa so it move all 1 way. You don't get problems like this nailing or gluing as each board moves on its own in its own area. a 4m run of floor say a 120mm board only has to expand 0.9mm per board to move 30mm over the room width

 

[jmbfestool]

yeah ms polymers are the way to go,

they failed in the way that they expanded so much that i had to break in via a window to get the door open on 1. the other way a kitchen going into a utility and aload of joints came apart in the doorway. this was before the kitchen was fitted so its not water or anything like that. The last just shurnk too much and moved from under 1 skirting this happened because the other side of the room had a heavy sofa so it move all 1 way. You don't get problems like this nailing or gluing as each board moves on its own in its own area. a 4m run of floor say a 120mm board only has to expand 0.9mm per board to move 30mm over the room width

I see your point. Its why my parents did expand a lot its 5.8meters long. Lucky really I it had the room to expand I often only leave no more than 20mm around for expansion.  What it did do was push the radiator pipes as they go into the floor I had to Fein a piece out to give it room as it properly would of crushed the pipe against the skirting.

If I was to do a really large room I properly would glue it down Rewmar MS Polymer Flexible.  I think for smaller rooms its fine for sure!

JMB

 

[justinmcf]

before any timber flooring is glued or nailed you need to make sure the concrete floor is prepared for flooring.
this involves sealing it with a moisture barrier epoxy.

sika make a great 2 part epoxy. sikafloor 261.
all the big flooring companies do it this way.

try googling sika and search for their sikafloor products.

another popular company is bostick.

after the concrete has been sealed with epoxy you should have no worries using sika or bostick adhesive products to glue the floor down, no nails required.
though the floor companies still use a few nails here and there when required.

justin.

 

[woodguy7]

Another thing i forgot to mention, anytime i fit flooring it must be in the room where it is to be laid, stacked with air gaps a minimum of 2 weeks before i lay it.  It is to let the boards acclimatise to the room where they will live  [smile]  Hopefully if they are going to move then they will do that in the 2 weeks & they should be nice & settled once laid.  If no heating on then i walk away I'm afraid, too much risk.

Woodguy.

 

[jmbfestool]

Another thing i forgot to mention, anytime i fit flooring it must be in the room where it is to be laid, stacked with air gaps a minimum of 2 weeks before i lay it.  It is to let the boards acclimatise to the room where they will live  [smile]  Hopefully if they are going to move then they will do that in the 2 weeks & they should be nice & settled once laid.  If no heating on then i walk away I'm afraid, too much risk.

Woodguy.

Well that's what I did with my parents flooring I left it n their hall way which is where it lives now and lounge for more than 4 weeks as you all know your own jobs you tend to leave them for a bit I kept saying ill start it next week hee hee.  but yeah the longer you can leave it in the room your laying it the better.

JMB

 

[tbellemare]

I'm curious what you would do with wood flooring if it is going in a room where the temperature changes from about 60 F to 80 F and the humidity can change from about 20 percent to 90.

Tom

 

[jmbfestool]

I'm curious what you would do with wood flooring if it is going in a room where the temperature changes from about 60 F to 80 F and the humidity can change from about 20 percent to 90.

Tom

Dont do it! RUN!

Umm ill use engineering flooring if they wanted solid flooring. I dont know really I would be scared to do the job hope for the best?! I have no experience in this! Dont kno

 

[Guy Ashley]

Tom

I have never had to deal with that set of circumstances, thankfully.

I am sure other FOG members on your side of the pond can tell us how they do it.

The usual problems associated with wood flooring over here is that it is laid too quickly without time to aclimatise to its surroundings or the concrete floor underneath is still damp or has not been sealed.

I used to sub for a firm who got work from insurance companies and the usual scenario was a burst water pipe through the ceiling soaking the wooden floor and the concrete base.

Their expectation was you turn up rip the old floor up, still wet, the supplier would arrive drop off the new flooring and you lay the new one the same day. Any concerns raised about this and quality of finished product were met with "just do it!"

Needless to say I have a little more pride in my work so I walked off the last job and dont work for them anymore.

Good money but no satisfaction from the work.

 

[tbellemare]

The scenario I described is typical for houses built in the near pre/post war era in this part of the world and the scenario is worse, say, in Houston or anywhere along the coast. Most of the houses I've lived in from that period have oak floors that are about 2" and if not water damaged, are still in good shape. Those houses lived for decades before conditioned air became common. Most would have just open flame gas heaters.

I have a friend that lives about a mile from here in a pier and beam from the '30's and all the floors are still in great shape, they just need refinishing. That flooring continued to be used through, maybe the '60's - well into the era of concrete slabs. I think on the slabs, it was common to use a subfloor on top of the concrete.

Maybe a floor expert from this part of the word can chime in...

Tom

 

[Deansocial]

i like to use sikaflex t53  but ran out of that last time so just chanced it with sikaflex ebt(but its my floors so no worries) That is still solid as a rock only 1 piece has moved and that is a tiny triangle in the corner that i should have nailed but i can redo that as the skirting is still on the todo list

 

[Wonderwino]

I don't do flooring, but I've seen a few shows on TV where they lay rigid foam insullation with tuck tape joints, then T&G ply or OSB, then nail the flooring to the T&G.  That insullates the floor and the whole thing floats for expansion.  I think that show is shot in Canada, where cold is a factor.