Electrical Advice Needed

[bruegf]

I finally decided to pull the trigger on the Sawstop table saw and went with the contractor model since it could run on 110V and I don't have 220V in my basement shop.  I had considered the cabinet saw but the $1300+ quote to put a subpanel in the basement finally convinced me I could live w/ the contractor saw.

Unfortunately it turns out that I don't have enough 110V power either.  I can run the saw but not with the shop vac - the lights flicker and both vac and saw start running slow.  Apparently all the outlets in the basement are hanging off of the same breaker.

I don't have any empty breakers in my panel and while I could yank one of the single breakers and replace with a breaker that has 2 breakers that fit in one slot, pulling the wires from my main panel (in the garage) to the other end of the house would be quite difficult. 

I do have two sources of 220V that I could get to semi-easily and the saw can be rewired to run on 220V. 

First is the circuit for the electric stove.  Its a 40 amp 6 AWG 2 conductor plus a bare ground conductor (all 3 wires are stranded wire).  This is the closest to my shop area.    Since it would be extremely rare that my wife would use all 4 burners plus the oven and broiler, this seems like the best bet as far as load goes, but since it only has 2 conductors plus a ground I'm not sure that I can use it for what I'm thinking.

The other is my dryer circuit.  Its a 30 amp 10 AWG 3 conductor plus a bare ground conductor (all 4 wires are solid wire).  Its a about twice as far from my shop as the stove circuit.  According to the manual the dryer draws 5400 watts, which translates to 22.5 amps at 240V, which just leaves the 7.5 amp I need for the saw.  Seems like it would be cutting it a bit close.

Neither are actually in the basement but I could drop either through the floor into the basement and wire the circuit to a subpanel, then take one circuit (with breaker matching its original size) from the subpanel back up through the floor to the appliance, and then add a second 10 amp double breaker to feed the saw at 220V (needs 7.5 amps).

Is this an option with either circuit and would it be safe?  If not, are there any other suggestions?

Thanks

Fred

 

[Holzhacker]

Hi Fred, leave the 220 lines alone. If you mess with them you could be in serious trouble come the holidays. Holidays = heavy usage.
There are other ways to open up a slot. You really have two issues, getting an open slot and getting wiring to the unit.
The following will be based on a lot of 'ifs' and assumptions so make wise choices based on your actual conditions.
The slot first - Depending on various conditions, you may be able to combine two existing circuits into one. You'll need help with this. Turn off one breaker at a time, to assess what each breaker controls, if you can find two breakers that don't control much, you may be able to combine those two locations into one breaker. This can often be hallway, stair, closet, pantry lights that ended up on their own circuit. Note, this does NOT mean double tapping the one breaker. A proper connection should be made in a junction box. Your local Code may not allow splices in the panel. Double taps are NOT allowed regardless, unless the breaker is rated for multiple connections.
If you cannot find such a scenario you may need to upgrade your panel or add a sub-panel. Going from a 12 or 16 position panel to a 20 or 24 pos panel is pretty cheap. Note- adding a sub-panel (which is actually not a legitimate term) is not as easy as running the same wires from the main panel to the 'subpanel'. There are different bonding requirements between ground and neutral that MUST be adhered to for a safe install.
The supply line - regardless of how difficult it may be, run a dedicated line for such a piece of equipment. Do you guys use EMT or Romex in your area? You could fish Romex through the house to the unit. From what you've said I would stub pipe outside and run it to the garage and back in.
Considering the saw and what else you are likely to plug in, I would recommend min one 20 amp 12 gauge circuit.
Electrical work should not be taken lightly and done by DIY. Sparky's around here are pretty desperate for work. I would recommend assessing your options and getting some prices or help from a qualified electrician.
Markus

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

On the safety side of electricity, please just have a bigger panel put in or the service upgraded.

There are a bunch of things to you could do but, it really sounds like you are maxed out on your current service.

The cheapest and maybe not the easiest,  is to run a new wire from the panel.
Make your wife help you fish wire, tell her it is for a good cause.

I just don't really care for over loaded circuits.

 

[TOOLMAN169]

Well if your electrician wants $1300 to install a sub panel. Did you ask him how much would he charge to install just one Piggy back breaker and run one 20 amp circuit to your saw. You can only run 16 amps continuous draw on a 20 amp breaker. You need to check your saw and vacuum's data plate to see if you can run both at the same time.

 

[Holzhacker]

Wait a minute, I missed the whole $1300 for a subpanel.
I don't know what your deal is with Sparky's in your location but that is insane compared to here.
Typical pricing here
Subpanel = 250-400
New larger size panel switch out = 500-700
Service upgrade from 100 Amp to 200 Amp = 1800-2400
I would call some other electricians for pricing. A new GE/Siemens 20/24 pos panel package with (usually) 6 breakers is a $100 or less. Add extra breakers at $4 each comes out to roughly $200 in materials.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

You should be able to have the panel swapped for a bigger one for around 6-800 bucks.

You should be able to upgrade the size (100 to 200 amp) for under 1200 bucks.

Those would be my first choice, second being a double breaker and a dedicated 20 amp line.

 

[Inner10]

You should be able to have the panel swapped for a bigger one for around 6-800 bucks.

That's a little on the cheap side, especially is there is not a disconnect before the panel.

Not sure what your local codes are but any competent individual with some electrical knowledge can pop in a pony panel REAL cheap.

 

[bruegf]

Thanks guys,

I thought the price I was quoted was high as well.  The only reason I didn't question it more is I had the same company install my generator transfer switch.  Cost was $700 and I already had the switch.  Thought that was high too, so I got a couple other quotes and they were all about the same.

The transfer switch is a whopping big single switch (enclosure is 3-4 times bigger than the electrical panel) that switches the entire panel between the generator and the utility line so I do have a way to disconnect the panel from the line without pulling the meter.

I've decided to live with running the saw on 110V for now.  I think I'll replace one of the current single pole breakers with a piggy back breaker and run a dedicated 12 AWG 15 amp 110V line for the saw.  Should be the cheapest option (since I spent my entire tool budget for the year on the saw and accessories) and work OK for now.  In a couple years I'll replace the electric stove with a gas stove and use the breaker that frees up to get a 220V circuit into the shop.

Having a new toy and not being able to use it is worse than waiting for Christmas when you're a kid!  Mobile base got here last Monday, Incra 1000SE miter gauge got here at the end of the week and the Wixey digital fence readout is due tomorrow.  Gotta get some power now!!!

Fred

 

[monstrol]

Electrical questions aside, your gonna love the saw.  It is not a cabinet saw but it will do what you need and "save" your digits.  I got the newer dust collection panel and it has improved performance.  It has both size openings for a 4 in. hose or a basic shop vac hose.  I had a little problem with the screws on the front fence tube and bracket and the tech. support was helpful.  Good luck.
Matt

 

[bruegf]

Matt, I have high hopes and I expect I will agree with you once I finally get a chance to start using it.    I've been wanting a better saw for some time now and decided that even though the saw carries a hefty premium it was far cheaper than one trip to the emergency room.   I've got the dust panel on order and it should be here in a week or so.   Festool has really spoiled me as far as dust control.  

Glad to hear you like your contractor saw.  I wrestled for weeks, trying to decide between the contractor and the cabinet saw.  In the end went w/ the contractor because of my lack of 220V power in the basement and the cost associated w/ getting it down there.

FYI - Sawstop told me that they will be offering the blade guard with dust port as an accessory for the contractor saw in a month or two.   Apparently you will have to get the newer style insert as well which will be a plus as it does not require an allen wrench to lift out.

Got the cable run and tandem breaker installed so am I good to go now.   Lights stay on when I turn on the saw now, which is a good thing.   Took all day, but was worth the $1250 savings compared to what the electrician was going to charge.  My dad will help me get the saw tuned this week and then I can start trying it out.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Fred

 

[monstrol]

Hey Fred. another thing I noticed was there isn't instructions in the manual to adjust parallelism of the blade to the miter slot.  Mine is fine.  I called and they will e-mail the instructions to you if you need.  I guess they didn't want the consumer messing with it??  Just call them if it is out of parallel.  The fence is nice although I had to adjust the face a little higher than they had it. Kind of a hassle until I figured it out.  Have fun.  I will have to check out the new guard.  I have been to the ER twice because of TS accidents, I have 2% loss of function in my left hand and a mean scar on my right palm, the last one cost me $1500.00 even with insurance.  The cabinet saw would have been nice but I couldn't get it into my basement shop.
Matt

 

[bruegf]

Matt,

My blade was off over .005 compared to the miter slot and I was surprised that there weren't any instructions to adjust it.  I ended up loosening the 4 bolts that held the trunions to the table and moved it around enough to get it lined up.  Was a bit tricky until I realized that you could get at the front left bolt by tilting the arbor to 45 degrees.  Hope I did it the right way - never even thought about calling them to see what to do.

I was worried about getting either saw into my basement shop since I had to go through 2 30" doors at a right angle to each other and then down a 30" stairway.  The contractor saw went down far easier than I expected - only had to have help with the main saw body/table.  Everything else broke down enough that I could carry it down by myself.

My saw had already been assembled so I didn't have any of the packaging.  Just kept taking things apart until they fit down the stair well.

Wow, two ER visits - the darn things are dangerous.  I've been lucky, but they do scare me.  Jointer and router too.  Hope you have better luck now.  Hopefully we'll never activate the brake.    Have you ever heard one fire?  It makes one hell of a bang.  I betting I'll need to change my pants if I ever trip thing!!

Fred

 

[James Watriss]

Hi Fred,

I've owned the industrial for almost 3 years now. I love it.

I've also called Sawstop customer support a few times. They're INCREDIBLY helpful, and always got the problem fixed. You're definitely not dealing with Delta/Porter Cable/DeWalt. You get a real person on the phone who is actually helpful. It's worth calling just to talk to them and feel reassured that they're actually there. I know it's not a normal instinct these days to call for help that's not usually there. SawStop is a pleasant surprise.

 

[bruegf]

Called Sawstop tech support because I wasn't sure how to make one last adjustment.  The blade is a few thousandths off from being parallel to the miter slot when the blade is at 45 degrees, even though at 90 degrees its within .002 over the full diameter of the blade.  Turns out that on the contractor saw there isn't an (easy) adjustment for this, but after talking with tech support for a bit they convinced me that it wasn't worth messing with.  It could be adjusted but it involves shimming between the trunnions and the table where the front trunnion is bolted to the table.

I have to echo everything about SS tech support that I've heard.  Got right through to a real person, one that was very friendly and very knowledgeable, and very helpful.  Sounds like tech support for Festool doesn't it?  Too bad that's such a rare combination for most companies these days.

Turns out I got lucky when I adjusted the blade to miter slot parallelism.  If you do it wrong its possible for the saw mechanism to actually drop free of the table.  Apparently that's the reason they don't cover that adjustment in the manual - they actually want you to call them so they can talk to you about it before they email you the instructions.

Still haven't had a chance to really use it yet, but after adjusting everything, this saw is as close to perfect as my fathers Unisaw and the table is actually flatter than his Unisaw.  Fence is only .002" off of perfectly parallel and only for a few inches in the middle of the fence, its .000 at each end of the fence relative to the miter track.

You've just got to love precision tools.

Fred

 

[bruegf]

Now that the saw is ready, I've decided that my craftsman shop vac isn't really going to cut it for dust collection.  After spending a number of hours w/ google I'm leaning towards the Delta 50-760 unit.  I'm limited to 110v since I don't have 220v in the shop.  The specs say this thing is 88" high but I've only got 86" clearance to the floor joists in the basement.  I'm guessing the filter bag will just be deformed a tiny bit - will that cause any sort of problem?

I've looked at other units but none seem more appealling - higher price, lower cfm, and/or not as fine of particle size filtration.  Any other recommendations for a 110v unit?

Thanks

Fred

 

[PaulMarcel]

Well, I have the HF 2 hp unit and really like it.  It seems much easier to modify than others.  I took out the lower bag cuz it is such a pain to empty (plus, I kept popping holes in it with errant boards) then later removed the upper filter bag in lieu of a Wynn canister filter for excellent filtration.

While HF has a certain 'name' to it, this one rocks.  I use it on my SawStop PCS and with a branch in the line, I get a pipe to the blade guard and the cabinet with more than enough air.  It also easily keeps up with the PM20 planer when actually planing 19" wide panels.

My modified version is 64" high; you'd have room for a shelf above it.

[attachimg=1]

 

[bruegf]

Thanks Paul, glad to hear that you are satisfied with it.   I stumbled across this unit about an hour after I posted last night and found that there's a 20% off coupon you can download from the harbor freight web site.   I'm planning to go over to the local store as soon as they open today.   Appears to be a good unit at a very low price.   From what I saw online, it appears that everyone that has one of these units is a) happy with it and b) has modified it further in some way to make it better.  Most frequent mods appear to be replacing the filter bag with a 35A pleated filter and adding a cyclone or Thiele baffle.

From your picture it looks like you too have added the Wynn filter.  Which filter did you go with?  How difficult is it to clean the dust out of the filter and how often do you find you need to do it?

Thanks

Fred

 

[PaulMarcel]

I'm definitely happy with it.  Be sure you get the second revision of the DC... one with the product code ending in 69; the previous model can still be found in places, but it has a plastic impeller and a few other differences.

I went with the spun-bond filter ($150) cartridge.  It is more durable and you can easily clean it with a blast of compressed air up to 80 psi, though I don't go that high.

When you order the 35A, you get new stretchy dust bags that apparently fit better on the bottom part, but they are still a pain to change.  The 30 gallon metal garbage can is nice as the entire unit doesn't move or "blow up" with air when the DC starts.  You might also notice a wood block stuck to the can; it has a rare-earth magnet epoxied to the stick and a copper grounding wire going back to the hoses.  I got shocked a few too many times from the bag once the static built up (it's very dry in AZ so I get a lot of static).

I blast the canister with compressed air every once in awhile.  More often if I've done a lot of drum sanding.  I empty my modified unit by taking the can/canister pair outside, remove the canister (comes off with the black donut). I typically lay the canister down, which is why there's a flat on the donut.  When flat, I'll blast it with a bit more air and can inspect the inside for buildup.  Then dump the can, which dumps more cleanly than emptying a bag.

The stock unit works well, but has a 5 micron bag so you'll want the canister.  That makes it a $300 DC and it will work really well.  By contrast, I also have a $246 Delta 50-720 and it doesn't have near the CFM or filter media capacity (it is, however, a 1 micron bag).  Also the Delta screams like a banshee; the HF runs relatively quietly; it's DIY nature also has people putting the impeller unit in a sound-deadening box rather easily, though I was concerned about heat.

 

[bruegf]

Thanks Paul,

I plan to order the Wynn filter in the next day or so.  I picked up the HF unit yesterday for $139 after finding a coupon from Wood magazine (saw that in the lumberjocks forum I think).  Hadn't noticed the ground wire until you mentioned it, sounds like something else to put on my list of mods. 

I'll have to figure out a different way to empty as I have to go up the basement stairs so will only be able to carry the bag or can.

Did you make a Thiele baffle in the metal can?

Thanks for all the info.  Looks like this will be a great shop addition for very little expense.

Fred

 

[PaulMarcel]

No, I didn't put a Thein baffle in the green collar part.  You can do it with some sheet metal bending, but I haven't done it yet.  Plans are available online.

Yeah, for me, I carry it outside the garage as a unit; very easily done then separate to give a decent cleaning.  Stick with the bags from Wynn when you get them.  You might like them a lot.  Now, I don't know about the height of the unit prior to my modification so I hope you verified it somewhere.  The measurement I gave was based on my modifications which significantly shortened it.