ETS 150/3 problems - burning smell and overheating

[denverdad]

Hi all, I am excited to finally own Festool, and to be a member of this great forum. My new sander has not gone that smoothly so far (ha, ha).

I bought an ETS 150/3 and CT22 Thursday night.

I used it briefly Friday night to sand some very small pieces of T&G cedar - maybe 4 pieces of 1x6, each 1 foot long, with a couple minute break between each one. The sander immediately got very hot, and smelled faintly like something burning. I used it a little bit on Saturday, and again noticed the heat and the smell. From reading this forum, I set the CT22 to 1/2 speed for all of these set-ups. Embarassingly enough I did not realize there was a speed control until I began this posting, it is set at 3.

Today, I am doing the main sanding job - sanding both sides of a fence panel. There are two panels of 1x6 T&G clear WRC (western red cedar), held in grooves in a mortise and loose tenon clear WRC frame (no fasteners aside from glue on loose tenons). The 1x6 was surfaced on one side, and I planed the other side. According to the local tech rep for Sikkens, who makes the finish I am going to use (3 coats Cetol 1), I need to sand the pieces with 120 grit to remove the "burnishing" from milling, so that the finish will penetrate the wood optimally(spelling?). The top panel is about 16" by 30" and the bottom panel is about 40"x30". I am sanding before glue up, so I clamped the T&G pieces in some Jet parallel clamps. I put some carpet pad between the clamps and the wood to isolate vibration, and protect the wood from scratching on the clamp bars. With Brilliant2 120 grit, I sanded one side of the smaller panel and smelled the burning smell and felt the heat, but the sander was a dream - I was barely holding it with one hand and just letting it glide over the panel. I flipped the panel over and reclamped it and sanded the other side - same thing - burning smell, very hot sander, but awesome sanding experience.

I then clamped the larger panel pieces in the Jet clamps and began to sand. Almost immediately, the sander became very hard to control, it required 2 hands, and it started swinging from side to side, and was very difficult to steer. The sander continued to smell like burning, and was now very hot, so I decided to stop and ask for help from the forum.

Sorry this was so long winded, the bottom line is:
1) Should the sander initially smell like something is burning?
2) Should the sander get very hot? It is hottest in the middle vertically - around where the stickers are, and the top of the handle where it says "3" also gets very hot.
3) Any idea why the sander would start to vibrate and get out of control?
4) Should I exchange this for a new one?

Thanks for your help!
-Randy

 

[Brice Burrell]

Randy, you have a bad sander, no question. Get a new one from the dealer.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Randy,
I agree with Brice.  This sander needs to go back.  It was strange enough seeing sawdust on a new sander, but this issue you report here makes it certain something is wrong.

Please report back to the forum when you return this sander.  Tell us how your experience with the exchange goes.

Matthew

 

[denverdad]

Well, so far, the exchange experience is not looking promising.

I bought the tool at a Woodcraft that is at least an hour away, and I called a different store that is closer to me but has the same owner.

I was told that I am supposed to send the tool back to Festool for warranty repair.

The manager is not working today, so they said I could ask their manager tomorrow whether I can exchange it for a new one, and whether I have to go to the further store.

So I am out of luck - I have a broken sander and can't do anything until at least tomorrow.

Is there any formal policy that dealers should exchange a broken tool for a new one? The 30 day policy on the FestoolUSA site says you have to call them and then mail it back to them.

Randy

 

[ifch317]

Randy, thanks for sharing your experience.  I am a Festool owner, and a customer of the stores you have identified.  I hope that if you have a better experience with these stores you will post.  Otherwise, you can share with the store owner that I will join you in avoiding these outlets in the future. Thanks, Daniel.

Daniel Dugan, Arvada, CO

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Randy,
I try to be careful in judging these situations from a distance.  But something just doesn't seem right about all this.  I'd be very interested to hear from one of the dealers about this.
Matthew

 

[semenza]

Hi,

      Forget that warranty idea. IMO when you buy a product that is defective out of the box, it goes back for a new one or refund. PERIOD ! There is no way I would take "no" for an answer from the store that sold you this. If they refuse - go over there head.

Seth Semenza

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Hi,

      Forget that warranty idea. IMO when you buy a product that is defective out of the box, it goes back for a new one or refund. PERIOD ! There is no way I would take "no" for an answer from the store that sold you this. If they refuse - go over there head.

Seth Semenza

I agree.  This is not a warranty situation.  The store should take the tool back for an exchange since it's only been a few days since you bought it.

Can you please specify which stores you bought these tools from?  They should be aware of this discussion and have a chance to respond here and explain their position.

Matthew

 

[John Langevin]

I deal with a Woodcraft Store in West Springfield, MA and they have a 1 year unconditional return policy on everything you buy from them. Although I agree with Matt that this doesn't even go there, they sold you a defective product and should exchange it or refund your money immediately. I would try contacting Woodcraft through their website and failing that I would email Christian at Festool, I feel sure that he would do the right thing, good luck.

 

[Dan Clark]

I agree with all of the above.  Especially with writing Christian O.  Festool has a great customer service record and the dealers are generally some of the best around.

IMO, the Dealer (not Festool USA) needs to work this issue.  It sounds like the product may have been used for demos, was damaged, but still sold as new.  Obviously, you need the issue resolved.  Christian needs to be aware of a potential Customer Service and Dealer issue.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Festool has a great customer service record and the dealers are generally some of the best around.

Definitely true, and I am sure Festool USA, as well as all dealers, want to make sure customers are well cared for.

IMO, the Dealer (not Festool USA) needs to work this issue.  It sounds like the product may have been used for demos, was damaged, but still sold as new.  Obviously, you need the issue resolved.  Christian needs to be aware of a potential Customer Service and Dealer issue.

Again, I agree.  This is just the sort of situation where Festool, as well as the dealer, earn their colors.  It's also the kind of situation where the forum can be quite instrumental.

Matthew

 

[Bob Childress]

From reading this forum, I set the CT22 to 1/2 speed for all of these set-ups. Embarassingly enough I did not realize there was a speed control until I began this posting, it is set at 3.-Randy

Randy,

It is pretty clear you have a defective sander and should replace it. But from reading your post I think we should clear up one or two points for the future, or at least for me.    The speed control on the CT22 does not have numbers, so I assume you have set the sander speed at 3. Why? On the off chance that you thought the speed control on the sander controlled the CT22, it doesn't, and if the CT is full power the sander will tend to chase all over the place and be a bit hard to steer from the suction. Sander speed is best at 6 unless you are in some special situations.  Just trying to understand what is happening. But I still think yours needs replacing.

 

[Michael Kellough]

From reading this forum, I set the CT22 to 1/2 speed for all of these set-ups. Embarassingly enough I did not realize there was a speed control until I began this posting, it is set at 3.-Randy

Randy,

It is pretty clear you have a defective sander and should replace it. But from reading your post I think we should clear up one or two points for the future, or at least for me.    The speed control on the CT22 does not have numbers, so I assume you have set the sander speed at 3. Why? On the off chance that you thought the speed control on the sander controlled the CT22, it doesn't, and if the CT is full power the sander will tend to chase all over the place and be a bit hard to steer from the suction. Sander speed is best at 6 unless you are in some special situations.  Just trying to understand what is happening. But I still think yours needs replacing.

Excellent point! Could low sander speed and high suction also account for a hot sander struggling to rotate the disk when not allowed much power?

 

[denverdad]

Wow, this forum is awesome.

I am the kind of guy who worries about things, so when the sander didn't seem right I was worrying up a storm. Hearing from so many people so quickly that the sander was bad and that Festool would take care of me really helped.

I have an update: the cliff notes version is that I am going to be taken care of. Read on if you want the nitty gritty.

I called the Loveland, Colorado Woodcraft Store and spoke with the manager. He said I should call Festool for an authorization, and then they would call him and authorize him to exchange the tool for a new one. The manager told me that Festool had a can do attitude. So I called Festool at 888-337-8600 and spoke with someone who told me just to take it back to the dealer, that they would be sent a new tool, that he did not need authorization, but he could call the dealer line if he had questions. I then called the manager back, and he said okay, and that I could return it to the (much closer) Denver location. I then called the Denver store to talk to the manager there, but he is out to lunch (physically). I will call back in an hour.

Maybe the confusion regarding the return process is due to how great Festool products are? If they never have to exchange them, then it would be understandable that they are not sure how to do the exchange.

Bob - let me clarify what I said here "Embarassingly enough I did not realize there was a speed control until I began this posting, it is set at 3". I did not read either manual (can you believe it?), and it did not occur to me that there would be a speed control on the sander(thats the embarrassing part), so after I realized I had a problem and went to make the original posting I looked more closely at the sander to see where it was getting hot and I noticed the dial with 1-6 on it and observed it was set at 3. I had set the CT22 on 50% from the beginning because I had read about sander bouncing on this forum before I decided to make the purchase.

Michael - that is a stellar question. Does anyone else want to try to make their ETS150 smell like it is burning?  My set-up was Brilliant2 P120 on milled cedar at speed setting 3 with CT22 set at 50% (halfway between rabbit and turtle).

All - does the ETS150 get hot normally?

All - my apologies for my bad writing - I have been a stay at home dad / builder of our home for 4 years and my communication skills seem to have suffered.

Thanks again
Randy

 

[Bob Childress]

No worries, mate. Just wanting to make sure I understood the set up. Sounds like a bum sander for sure.  :'(

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Denverdad,
So, did it get resolved?

Maybe all this is because the store never had to deal with a Festool return before!!

Please let us know what happens.  This kind of situation is good to have on view for our members.

Matthew

 

[denverdad]

I just got the replacement sander, I have not had time yet to try it.

I learned that this forum has definitely helped my situation.

Heres all the gory details for anyone who is interested.

First I spoke to another sales rep at the Denver Woodcraft store who told me I could not return the tool to Denver without talking to the manager. The manager was out, and was leaving that night for the rest of the week at the Las Vegas show, so I called back a couple of times until I reached him. I eventually spoke to the Denver manager at 4 yesterday afternoon. He had read this whole thread. He apologized to me and thanked me for educating them on the process.  He said that he had not known that they could do an exchange. He said he doesn't stock /3's just /5's, so I was going to have to go to Loveland. (As an aside - from reading this forum and all available info while researching this purchase, I had the impression that the /3 made more sense in the ETS150 because it is best for fine sanding, and the Rotex has the same stroke as the /5.) He gave me some tips for setting up the ETS150/3 and CT22 to work best together. I asked him if he could order the /3 to save me the trip to Loveland. He double checked his inventory, and found a /3 in the back with a scuffed up case. He said he would leave it for me to pick up in Denver. He told me to ask for a specific employee. He seemed to want me to post a positive experience here, which makes sense.

When I went in today to exchange the tool, I spoke with the employee that he had recommended I ask for. The gentleman was begrudging, and when I suggested I swap the new sander into my original undamaged case, he said "whatever".  He told me that the Festool sanders are designed to run very hot and that it would not be unusual for them to smell like they were burning. Does that match the experience of users of the ETS150/3 here?

I got the replacement sander, but it was not a premium experience.

I want to make it clear that the Managers of the Woodcraft stores handled my situation well - I was especially impressed that the Denver manager knew who I was and had read this thread before I spoke with him. I also want to make it clear that I really don't want to badmouth anyone publicly, so I am really trying to present all the details I can remember. This is just my personal reactions to my exact experience. I am sure that many people have had wonderful experiences buying Festool at these Woodcraft stores.

I have a hard time believing that anyone cares about the details, but if that person exists here is my whole experience, and my conclusions.

You've heard about the support side of my Festool purchase, here's the purchase side:

The first time I went into the Denver Woodcraft, it was to look at Festool. I just wanted to browse and touch the tools I had read so much about, but I had a gentleman who did not seem to know as much as I had already learned on the internet hovering over me. I don't like high pressure sales situations. He told me that the Denver Woodcraft salespeople only get paid a commission on Festool products, so he wanted me to ask for him if I came back to buy Festools.

When it came time to buy the Festools, I decided to drive to Loveland to buy the Festool - I was uncomfortable with my Denver experience, and I did not realize how far away the store was (at least an hour).

I wanted to buy:
- a CT33 or CT22 with ETS 150/3
- filter bags for the extractor
- 5-packs of Brilliant2 P120, P180
- 5-packs of Rubin P100, P120
-Vlies 100 and 280 to maintain my cast iron surfaces (tablesaw and jointer and more to come I am sure)

In Loveland, they had no CT33, so I settled for the CT22.
They had no CT22 filter bags.
They had Brilliant2 P180 and Rubin P120.
The salesperson told me he did not receive commissions.

I drove home. I noticed that the vac appeared to be 2 years old, and made my first post on this group. The next day I had to drive down to the Denver store to look for the bags and for the abrasives.
I also decided I would like:
-a cleaning set, either the compact cleaning set or the workshop cleaning set
- auxiliary vac nozzles
-a handle for the extractor
- an adapator to try to hook the CT22 up to standard shop vac ports (table saw) and accessories

Of those things, Denver had the Vlies, the Brilliant2 P120, and the Rubin P100. They had one cleaning kit, the Universal Cleaning set. They have the boom arm, but they don't have the handle (that's required to install a boom arm).  They had no bags. They had no nozzles. No adaptor. They said they would order the rest. I was aggravated, I could have ordered the things online myself. So I said I would order them myself. He tried to tell me that I couldn't buy them online, that Festool has strict rules for them, etc. This was not the way to convince me to give him a commission - I left.

The bottom line is, why buy from a local vendor instead of over the internet? I had spent a lot of time wanting the Festool, and when my wife and I decided to make the big purchase I wanted to be able to use it that weekend so I had to buy it locally. I also like to see and touch things. I also wanted to have a smooth return process where I could take things back to a store and get a new one the same day. As it turned out, I did not get those benefits by buying locally. I also paid more. Online, you don't pay sales tax, and large orders don't pay for shipping. You can also buy from someone who sells Festool professionally - like as their full time job.

So for me personally, if my local store does not have a huge selection of things in stock, with knowledgable sales people, and a smooth return process, there is no reason to buy it from them. I just need to get over my "need it now" mind set.

If there are any other local dealers of Festool who are interested in ways they could do better, I would recommend that they stock a well thought out selection of tools and accessories, that they don't pay their salespeople commission (or they handle it differently), that they embrace the Festool service standards, that they are upfront about what they do not know, etc.

I am currently eyeing the Domino, the OF1400, the MFT, and the TS55. As you all know, Festool is like potato chips. Dealers really can't afford to give bad first experiences.

An example of how a factory store should work is Red Wing. I buy Red Wing boots. Go into the store and ask some questions. They have a computer that maps your foot, then the salespeople ask you about what type of work you will be doing, then they tell you which boots would be good for your foot in your job. I had a problem with my first pair where my pinky toe was getting crushed and the toenail fell off, I went back to the store to buy some new Red Wings, they apologized for selling me the wrong size and gave me a brand new pair. I can order cheaper boots online, but I would rather pay $250 for the Red Wing package. Besides I get free boot laces for life.

I don't mind paying double for the Festool, but I am looking for the same experience as I get with my Red Wings.

The saving grace of this entire experience was this forum. As a result I will continue to be a Festoolie and keep the catalog by my bed - now if I could just get a second one for the bathroom.

Thank you,
Randy

 

[Dan Lyke]

Randy, you asked "why buy from a local vendor instead of over the internet?", and I've gotta admit that I don't know.

It happens that my brother out-law (we're not married...  ) works at a Festool dealer about 4 hours away from us, they've got a setup right by the cash register (over a carpeted floor), let you play with the tools there, and a decent stock, so our first purchase was there. I don't know, but I think pretty much anyone would get the same gold carpet treatment we got, even though we're family.

However, every time but one that I've gone into my more local dealer, at best I've had to have the guy at the counter call their Festool specialist to find out where stock was hiding, I've been billed outrageous costs for shipping stuff, everything is packed away, and I've had to pry details out of their staff with a crowbar.

The one time it was different, it was shortly after 6AM (yes, they're a serious contractor's hardware store) and I was actually talking to their Festool guy. But if I couldn't pass the business to family, four hours away and generally drop shipped from Reno anyway, I'd definitely be patronizing one of the internet vendors who participate in this forum.

So horray for the 'net! And maybe some of these bad experiences will filter back to Festool USA and they'll clamp down on some of the bad dealers. Even if that means that I have to order supplies rather than driving 40 minutes each way and then spending half an hour trying to help the staff find the sandpaper I want.

Oh, and our ETS150/5 has been used extensively in our living room, we'd have noticed any burning smell, and it's never run hot for us.

 

[Dan Clark]

Randy,

I'm sorry you've had issues.  I must say that this does NOT match my experience with Festool dealers.   I've purchased my Festool equipment from three local Dealers - including Seattle Woodcraft - and an online Dealer.   

We are very fortunate to have several excellent online dealers whose knowledge and dedication to Festool is pretty amazing.  They have a very strong presence on this forum and, although I'm loyal to one, I would be VERY comfortable with buying from any of them. 

And, I've been happy with my local dealers too.  All three have some top-notch, Festool-trained people who are very high quality.   And this includes Seattle Woodcraft.  Even the Woodcraft salespeople who were not Festool-trained were more than eager to help in any way they could.  While they may not have had extensive Festool knowledge, their attitude was first rate.

I suspect that the person that you ran into was the exception.  Unfortunately some people don't understand how fast news travels on the Internet and how quickly they can get a bad reputation.   Festool users expectations are quite high for the tools and service.   What would be considered pretty good for some tools and their customer service is unacceptable with Festool.

It sounds like you're up and running, and that's the important thing.  Welcome to the group.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., I've pounded the tar out of my Rotex 150 with NO burning smell.

 

[DaveM]

p.s., I've pounded the tar out of my Rotex 150 with NO burning smell.

Ditto.  No burning smell on mine either.

Randy--sorry to hear about your less than acceptable purchase experience.  I would echo Dan's comments, my experience at my local Woodcraft has also been first rate, those folks seem eager to help in any way they can.

Regards,
Dave