Fences and Tape Measures

[ChuckM]

Snip.The tape has to be square to the fence,Snip.

That's why a flat steel or aluminum rule (some up to 39"), with its square end, is a better tool for transferring a certain measurement and setting the fence.

Edit: Just found this poll relevant to our discussion:https://blog.woodworkingtooltips.com/2017/11/poll-do-you-use-the-built-in-ruler-on-your-saw-fences/

The poll suggests that those who relied on the fence scale all the time were in the minority, and that didn't surprise me. I probably belong to the "Other" group because I use both the scale and tape measure depending on the task at hand.

Do you guys calibrate your saw fence's scale when you change blades? I don't use thin kerf blades as they are not recommended by SawStop, but I don't calibrate my table saw even when switching between the WWII blades (three of them) and the SawStop premium blade. For critical cuts, I do check the fence and blade with a steel rule.

 

[Mini Me]

Snip.The tape has to be square to the fence,Snip.

That's why a flat steel or aluminum rule (some up to 39"), with its square end, is a better tool for transferring a certain measurement and setting the fence.

Edit: Just found this poll relevant to our discussion:https://blog.woodworkingtooltips.com/2017/11/poll-do-you-use-the-built-in-ruler-on-your-saw-fences/

The poll suggests that those who relied on the fence scale all the time were in the minority, and that didn't surprise me. I probably belong to the "Other" group because I use both the scale and tape measure depending on the task at hand.

Do you guys calibrate your saw fence's scale when you change blades? I don't use thin kerf blades as they are not recommended by SawStop, but I don't calibrate my table saw even when switching between the WWII blades (three of them) and the SawStop premium blade. For critical cuts, I do check the fence and blade with a steel rule.

The latest DRO's available allow you to re-calibrate them to a new blade in about two minutes. Set the fence to a random position, cut and measure the piece just cut with digital verniers then put that measurement into the DRO, job done.

 

[ChuckM]

For those interested:https://www.chipsfly.com/tablesaw-digital.html

 

[Michael Kellough]

“put that measurement into the DRO”

I don’t think my first gen Wixey can do that. I wonder if there is a replacement that fits the original rail?

When I use a blade with an unusual kerf I won’t adjust the curser (or Wixey) unless the new blade will be there for a long time. I’ll just mark where the cut should be on the stock and sneak up to it.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip. I’ll just mark where the cut should be on the stock and sneak up to it.

This is basically the story stick approach, and I use it , too, but instead of marking with a pencil in the case of critical cuts. I use a marking knife. Lining up the pointed tooth on the blade with the scribed line on the workpiece to set the fence for a cut probably can meet the most stringent requirements of any woodworking projects under the sun.

 

[kevinculle]

This is why I personally don't like tape measures for finish or precise measurements. No matter how accurate they are, because of how they're shaped and how they work they're inherently more prone to error than an inflexible tool.

Also why it's better to use a story stick or similar instead of using numbers when you can; no counting and guessing between lines.

Or equip your table saw or router table with an Incra fence system...I have the TS-III on my Delta table saw with cast iron router extension table.  The system uses toothed racks that interlock available in either 1/32" or 1mm increments.  These provide repeatability in setting the fence of +/- a few thousandths of an inch or about 0.05mm.  There is a vernier adjustment that is settable to 0.001" or 0.025mm increments.  Mine has about 0.002" of lash in the vernier.  So long as you know the width of your saw kerf you will never need a tape measure at the table saw again.  There is a downside...the fence system mechanism protrudes out the right end of the saw so it's a bit of a space hog but well worth it.

The problem isn't how accurate (or innacurate) his table saw fence is, the problem is the table saw and the tape measure don't agree on the same measurement.

Obviously you want your measuring tools to be as accurate as possible, but it's more important that they all agree (This is the difference between precision and accuracy). If all your measuring tools are off by 1/4 inch, as long as they're all off by that same amount you will get the same distance no matter what measuring tool you use.

 

I'm afraid you have lost me...what do you need a tape measure for?  You have a design with critical dimensions.  You are going to make parts to those critical dimensions.  You set the fence of your table saw to the dimension and make the cut, along with the cuts of all adjacent parts that match that critical dimension.  Unless you are making a piece that will fit into a fixed dimension in your home, between two walls for instance, where best practice is to make it slightly oversize and scribe it to fit.  I am missing where the tape measure comes into play.

 

[alltracman78]

I'm afraid you have lost me...what do you need a tape measure for?  You have a design with critical dimensions.  You are going to make parts to those critical dimensions.  You set the fence of your table saw to the dimension and make the cut, along with the cuts of all adjacent parts that match that critical dimension.  Unless you are making a piece that will fit into a fixed dimension in your home, between two walls for instance, where best practice is to make it slightly oversize and scribe it to fit.  I am missing where the tape measure comes into play.

The original discussion was about measuring a cut size somewhere else with a tape measure and then transferring that measurement to the saw to cut.
In this case, where you're using more than one measuring tool it's more important that the different measuring tools agree (even if they aren't accurate) than any one measuring tool is perfectly accurate.

If you're going off plans than yes, it's better to have a very accurate fence guide. Though even with plans you still have to take measurements some times, and if you use more than one tool (like a router table) you're back to the original "problem" of having more than one measuring reference and the possibility of them not agreeing.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

The original discussion was about measuring a cut size somewhere else with a tape measure and then transferring that measurement to the saw to cut.
In this case, where you're using more than one measuring tool it's more important that the different measuring tools agree (even if they aren't accurate) than any one measuring tool is perfectly accurate.Snip.

Yes, this is exactly the subject matter for this thread.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=57948]ChuckS[/member] in general, we don't need to calibrate with blade changes. The different saws have somewhat specific blades on them, depending on the location in the shop. There are always at least 3 copies of each blade. One in the saw, one on the shelf, and one (possibly) out to the sharpener, or on the shelf too.

One has a 50 tooth combination blade. Particle board, plywood, solid wood
One has an 80 tooth TCG with a low rake angle, I think they are currently 5 degree? This one is mostly for laminate, but some solid surface gets cut there too.
The slider is metric, 300mm? also TCG
The Streibig vertical panel saw has specific blades too. They are 10" but odd bore diameter. I think they are 30mm, rather than the usual 5/8" It cuts mostly solid surface.
This goes for the "manual" saws, the Beam saws is a little special in this situation. Each blade has a serial number engraved on the body, by the sharpener. The saw's computer has a specification profile, so as long as you tell it the right number when you swap blades, it compensates internally.
I have been bitten by the wrong blade thing there. Turns out that having the right diameter encoded matters when you try to kerf-cut ply at a specific depth..... [unsure]

The challenge is to cut the "same size piece" at each place and have them all actually be the same.
This includes my personal SCMS. I use the Kreg fence and stop system there and those parts need to match too.

 

[Mini Me]

“put that measurement into the DRO”

I don’t think my first gen Wixey can do that. I wonder if there is a replacement that fits the original rail?

When I use a blade with an unusual kerf I won’t adjust the curser (or Wixey) unless the new blade will be there for a long time. I’ll just mark where the cut should be on the stock and sneak up to it.

Michael, no it can't but when it was introduced the Wixey was a game changer. Unfortunately technology has left it behind and I wonder how long Wixey can avoid updating the read head to simplify things. I had a Wixey about five minutes after I heard about it and it did sterling service until recently so having used both types of DRO's I see the huge advantages of the newer type.

Wixey's main problem was the resolution or how far the fence moved without registering the change on the readout. With the new types coming out of China now the resolution can be changed to suit the use whether that be on a metal lathe or woodwork table saw or any other machine. On my K3 was able to put the magnetic read tape under the original measuring tape and it can't be seen thus enabling the use of both.

I have two of the Igauging units linked in an above post and gave up on them due to installation problems but that was not the fault of the DRO as I was trying to adapt them to a different machine and I don't think they are available in Australia any longer.

 

[Mini Me]

I was converted to digital many years ago when I built a covered trailer in a digitally equipped workshop where every machine was connected to a central computer. We decided on the outer dimensions, built the chassis using a tape to check the diagonals and did not have to use a tape again as everything fitted as it should. It was a huge lesson in what is possible and not having to fiddle with the fit of components was very enjoyable.

 

[Michael Kellough]

To be honest my old Wixey DRO is seldom used. It requires button batteries which seem to be dead every other project. Also, the refresh rate is slow so it actually takes longer to set than my simplified vernier curser.

A couple years ago I found out that Wixey has a newer version that use AAA batteries will ride the same rail. I didn’t bite then but if there were a version as smart as what Mini describes I’d go for it.

 

[luvmytoolz]

DRO's are a hit or miss depending on what they're used for. On my milling machine and metal lathe a DRO is pretty essential, but on my drum sander I stopped using it even well before the batteries went flat. Found it too much of a PITA to adjust everytime I changed belts, and I'd still need to use a vernier gauge anyway.

I'll fit one eventually to my Jet planer/thicknesser combo machine, but that's about the limit of usefulness for me.

 

[Mini Me]

To be honest my old Wixey DRO is seldom used. It requires button batteries which seem to be dead every other project. Also, the refresh rate is slow so it actually takes longer to set than my simplified vernier curser.

A couple years ago I found out that Wixey has a newer version that use AA batteries will ride the same rail. I didn’t bite then but if there were a version as smart as what Mini describes I’d go for it.

As I said I abandoned the Wixey and went to the same DRO as in this link.

http://

 

[Mini Me]

DRO's are a hit or miss depending on what they're used for. On my milling machine and metal lathe a DRO is pretty essential, but on my drum sander I stopped using it even well before the batteries went flat. Found it too much of a PITA to adjust everytime I changed belts, and I'd still need to use a vernier gauge anyway

What DRO was that so I know to avoid it?

 

[luvmytoolz]

DRO's are a hit or miss depending on what they're used for. On my milling machine and metal lathe a DRO is pretty essential, but on my drum sander I stopped using it even well before the batteries went flat. Found it too much of a PITA to adjust everytime I changed belts, and I'd still need to use a vernier gauge anyway

What DRO was that so I know to avoid it?

From memory it's an aftermarket Wixey as I'm pretty sure the Supermax didn't originally ship in OZ with a DRO by default. The Wixey isn't bad, I just found it a little flimsy and finicky for my liking, and on a drum sander using different grits it's not super practical. If I cared enough for a DRO, I'd definitely be getting one of the better units on the market. My metal lathe and mill have good quality DRO's and they are super useful there.

 

[rmwarren]

For the longest time I thought my inability to make accurate cuts (defined as hitting the exact measurement I was targeting) was just that, my own inability. Only recently has it sunk in how easy it is to impart error when using a tape measure followed by the tools scale etc.

As much as possible I'm moving to setting up cuts using references like gauge blocks or story sticks. Woodpeckers has several useful items, including stops that attack to their 2" rulers.

Taking measurements out of the equation is a game changer, as are digital scales that can be zeroed easily so you are working in relative terms.

RMW

 

[Michael Kellough]

“As I said I abandoned the Wixey and went to the same DRO as in this link.”

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member].  What is the link?

 

[rmwarren]

“As I said I abandoned the Wixey and went to the same DRO as in this link.”

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member].  What is the link?

https://www.chipsfly.com/tablesaw-digital.html

RMW

 

[Mini Me]

“As I said I abandoned the Wixey and went to the same DRO as in this link.”

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member].  What is the link?

https://www.chipsfly.com/tablesaw-digital.html

RMW

The links are in the information section provided by the video uploader.