Festool based, table saw-less, small homeshop - comments/suggestions?

[LaserGecko]

Hi everyone,

First post, this has probably been covered in the YahooGroup, but...well, congratulations on the new easy to use message board.

So, I fell in love with Festool products when we had a couple of guys come down from Utah last year to install our Corian countertops. Our neighbor gave us about 90sq feet of Corian that he removed from a house that was converting to granite. No one in Las Vegas would give us the time of day about remanufacturing it (well, one place said they'd only charge $40/sq foot to do it. The same price as HD charges for NEW.) Don (?) said he and his brother could come down and do it in one day..and that they had some special "low dust, low fuss" tools.

Let's just say that when I saw them do a perfectly straight 10' cut in my front yard, I was amazed. (I would've killed for that when I was building speakerboxes!) They did an outstanding job of showing me the magic of Festools. Oh yeah, and the Corian work was top-freaking-notch, too. (Great guys, over there at McGarvie Countertops.)

Ever since then, I've been thinking about my garage, its reorganization, and finally getting some real woodworking capabilities going since I'm the son of a carpenter and my son is going to be five soon. Personally, my woodworking projects have been sporadic, but they mainly involve melamine and its transformation into shelves and reptile cages. Since the new countertops do such a good job of making our cabinets look dated, I want to eventually make the doors to reface them. My wife says "well, if you have to get a $200 tool to do a job that would cost $500, then go for it".

So, eventually, I want to have a router table with a lift for raised panel work, but that can wait until I'm "back in the saddle".

Storage in the garage is a bit of a concern. It's a two car garage, but only with enough room for one vehicle due to the workbench and built-out wall for the laundry room. We recently acquired some Craftsman storage units and workbenches which are really helping me get organized, but they do take up a bit of real estate.

I've been waiting for the SawStop Contractor model to be released, but even then I wouldn't really have the room for it. I do have access to a tablesaw when I need it (and a workshop that has every Delta tool known to man), but man, after seeing the MFT in action, I believe I can wait awhile for the SawStop. I had never really considered a dustcollector, but after thinking about all of the stuff we have stored in the garage, it's almost a necessity.

I think a Festool system would suit me very well: Compact, organized, and not sitting there taking up floorspace when it's not being used and not throwing sawdust everywhere. With this tool system being one of those "engineering nirvanas", I can already see the logic behind the "you'll end up with everything, anyway" comments reflected in other message threads.

Considering some of the photos I've seen on here, I don't know if I can consider myself a woodworker! Please let me know what you think about the current and future goals for my shop:

NOW
smaller projects, melamine reptile cages
TS55EQ 6-1/4" Plunge-Cut Saw with 55" GuideRail & MFT1080 Table Package
Clamps, etc.
OF1010 1.5HP Router & CT22 Vac Package

FUTURE
Cabinet doors
Router table with lift
Festool sander
Festool Jigsaw

Of course, I have some gear now, but these are the (obviously) major investments.

Any pitfalls? Is there anything that I will miss by not having a dedicated tablesaw?

Thanks in advance,

Jason

 

[tk21769]

On this topic, what I'd like to see is some description of how a Festool set-up would replace a table saw, on a procedure-by-procedure basis.  How would you cut tenons?  How would you make repeated rip cuts, of identical width in hardwood stock, for cabinet door rails and stiles?  etc.  Assume I have an MFT, router, circular saw, guide rails and accessories.

I can easily see Festool replacing a cabinet saw to break down plywood, or for use as a chop saw.  I have a harder time seeing the TS55+MFT replacing a tablesaw for all sorts of joinery.

 

[Michael Kellough]

On this topic, what I'd like to see is some description of how a Festool set-up would replace a table saw, on a procedure-by-procedure basis.  How would you cut tenons?  How would you make repeated rip cuts, of identical width in hardwood stock, for cabinet door rails and stiles?  etc.  Assume I have an MFT, router, circular saw, guide rails and accessories.

I can easily see Festool replacing a cabinet saw to break down plywood, or for use as a chop saw.  I have a harder time seeing the TS55+MFT replacing a tablesaw for all sorts of joinery.

I wouldn't want to give up my table saw.
But, if I were starting from scratch (knowing what I now know) I'd buy a much smaller table saw, maybe even a portable bench top model. When you have the Festool plunge cut saw system you really only need to add repeatable narrow ripping capacity. You don't need extension wings or a sliding crosscut table.

 

[mstens]

Actually, I'd be tempted to get a good bandsaw at that point.  That'd provide repeatable ripping, along with a lot of other capabilities, with a smaller than a tablesaw footprint.  You can cut tenons all day long with the router and a jig like Pat Warners... or something like a woodrat.

 

[mysterium]

As much as I love & use the Festool plunge saws.... replace my table saw no way.

The TS I've had for more than 20 years is a Unisaw.  Great saw!!! 

However if I was starting form scratch today, I'd look a quality European saw with slider that accepts a dado blade for shop work.  But because of the Festool plunge saws, I would not need a 100" of travel on the slider. 

Nor do feel that with a cabinet saw, or contrators saw a fence needs over 30" of travel with the Festool plunge saws.

jim

 

[Michael Kellough]

Actually, I'd be tempted to get a good bandsaw at that point.  That'd provide repeatable ripping, along with a lot of other capabilities, with a smaller than a tablesaw footprint.  You can cut tenons all day long with the router and a jig like Pat Warners... or something like a woodrat.

A band saw is a wonderful tool. If I could only have one power tool it would be a band saw.

 

[Dan Clark]

You know, I have similar situation.  Two car garage and no other space to work in.  I'm in the midst of a major bath remodel (from the joists up and studs out) so my garage and bath look like war zones.  But after the bath is done, the garage will turn back into a garage/workshop and the cars will live inside at least five days a week.   

So, my goal is to have a compact workshop that can be set up and break down quickly.  So far my Festools have done a great job meeting my needs.  When I start building some cabinets and doors, then I might have to change but I hope not.  I hope that Festool will bring the CMS into the United States this year (or in 2008) and that it will provide enough table-saw functionality to meet my needs. 

The only power tools that I think might be nice to have are 1) a lunch box planer, 2) a band-saw (maybe 14"), and 3) possibly a drill press.  All of those have the advantage of having small bases that can be made mobile.

I do take exception to the standard wisdom tossed out on a constant basis that the table-saw is a MUST HAVE and should be your first power tool.  I will never criticize someone who has one and believes it meets their needs.  That said, I haven't found the need for me yet. 

Dan.

 

[Jim Becker]

Despite the extreme versatility that Festool offers, there still are going to be things that require other power tools to accomplish, IMHO. And then there are things that you can do with Festool, but can do them more comfortably with other tools...like ripping on the TS. So my opinion is that it's worth trying to see how it works out for you, but don't hesitate to put other machines in the shop if they are the right way and/or the most comfortable way for you to accomplish things. In my own shop, Festool has taken over a number of things that I did differently in the past, especially with the MFT and saw combination. (I've used it for some precision routing tasks lately, too) That's good 'cause I'm getting a lot of value out of my investments.

 

[Dan Clark]

... you can do with Festool, but can do them more comfortably with other tools...like ripping on the TS.
...

Jim,

I agree with your point.  But I think a major issue is what is faster - running down to your workshop to rip, or turning around (because your "TS" is right behind you) and ripping with Festool.  If you are IN your workshop, then you are very probably correct.  OTOH, if you are working "on-site", then the time it takes you to go back to your TS may be longer than setting up your MFT + TS55. 

Festool has an amazing array of tools.  There are only a few areas left where traditional tools are faster and better.  Since Festool is staffed by some VERY creative people, I can't but imagine that they have their sights on those few areas.  When the time comes need additional tools, I'll eval Festool to see if they can do it.  If so, I'm all over the Festools.  If not, I have no problem buying other tools that fit my needs.

Dan.

p.s., AFAIK, Festool does not make nailers.  A few months ago, I bought several nailers and staplers for various purposes.  I'm happy with what I got.  The key for me is getting good stuff.  I'm so spoiled that buying poor quality is not in the cards.

 

[Dan Clermont]

I have never had a tablesaw and don't see one in the near future.

I have built a workbench, bookcases, closet organizer, computer storage cabinet, shoe storage, baby gates and don't see a need for one.

I do have a Laguns 14SE bandsaw with a 1.5HP motor and whenever I need to mill something small I use the bandsaw and then clean up the edges with a hand plane.

Different strokes for different folks and if you have never had a tablesaw you may find you will never need one.

Dan Clermont

 

[woodshopdemos]

Jason,
  A hearty welcome to you (until you mentioned melamine reptile cages - as in snakes? yuck. Up to that time I was.... my weakness.

Now, as to doing with or without a TS, yes is is useful for some operations like the repetetive rip cuts, but if you do not have one in the shop, you can make all things (even reptile cages) without. For the sake of a better answer, I occasionally use the "all Festool shop" where I simply do not stray to the other tools, namely TS, CMS or BS. I takes some jigging but still doable. I do it to answer those readers who have this very same question.
  Take a look at this Festool story menu page. you will see a number of articles coering this aspect.http://www.woodshopdemos.com/men-fes.htm

Elena starting her Festool instructions

 

[ScottS]

Jason I'm in a similar boat: wanted to make reptile cages, bookshelves, and cabinets in a one-car garage with a low ceiling. I bought the ATF55 (predecessor of the TS55) saw, MFT1080 multi-function table, OF1000 router, and the CT22 vac. It's a great setup and I've completed quite a few projects with it, including nine melamine reptile cages, three cherry shop cabinets, and a bunch of other stuff.

Will you miss having a tablesaw? Perhaps. The tools do have some limitations. Bevel cuts with the saw are awkward. So is rip cutting narrow pieces of wood, like you'd use for a face frame. Both problems could be solved with jigs if you did them frequently. Obviously, power and capacity may be an issue. If you've got a big hunk of 16/4 hardwood lying around you're probably going to need more than a TS55. The MFT1080 is a great tool, but a bit fiddly. I find that whenever I move mine (which is often) I need to check the setup and accuracy. I find that if I don't square the fence every time the table is moved, that I end up with cuts that are just a bit off. Not enough to ruin a project, but enough so that I notice.

The OF1010 is a great router. But if it's the only router you'll ever own, I'd strongly consider the OF1400 instead. My OF1000, and I'm assuming the OF1010, will only accept bits with a 1/4" or 8mm shank. 8mm bits are almost impossible to find in the U.S., except from Festool, so you'll be stuck with 1/4" bits. If all you'll ever need to do is edge routing and grooves, the OF1010 is a fantastic tool; very light and easy to control, which makes it perfect for hand-held operations. If you want a router that can be deployed in a router table and used to make raised-panel doors you'll probably want something that has a bit more horsepower and can accept 1/2"-shank bits. In my case, I had a Bosch 1617 router that was "retired" to router table usage.

BTW, I'd suggest you also aquire another guide rail. You'll want the ability to make rip cuts across an entire 8' sheet of plywood at some point or another. I bought a second 55" rail and the connector that joins it to the first. I find it perfectly adequate, though many guys will argue that a single 8' rail is more accurate or easier to use.

In addition to the tools you've mentioned, I'd be lost without my drill press. I bought one of the larger (12") bench-top models for around $100-150. It gets used on just about every project!  I find a low-angle block plane is invaluable for tweaking the fit of pieces. I bought the Lee Valley, but if I had it to do over again I'd probably go with the slightly smaller Lie-Nielsen. Finally, if you want to work with hardwood you'll invariably need access to a jointer and a planer. Even if you spend the money to buy S4S wood, I find that it often needs a few passes through the jointer and/or planer before it's perfect.

 

[LaserGecko]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

John, don't worry. I'm mainly a lizard guy. The SO wouldn't put up with legless reptiles in the house. Your website is brilliant. It's pretty much responsible for me considering Festool seriously for my use. There's so much great information; finding the time to read it all is the hard part.

ScottS,

Woo hoo! Are you sure we're not related? It sounds like we're in the same boat. I already have two drill presses (one will be finding a new home). I emailed Woodpecker and they said their PlungeLift does not support the Festool routers. Bummer, but I wonder how hard it would be to adapt.

is an old picture of my uromastyx cage. It's generated over a thousand emails asking where to buy it, how it's made, etc., so I'm finally going to make a plan kit to sell on the site for $10 and help pay for the ridiculously priced hosting. Unfortunately, I can no longer find the cool plastic soffit vent that just snaps perfectly into 1/4" melamine so I'll have to find something else. (Gee, I wonder where I could find a knowledge source familiar with woodworking gadgets?  ) The multiunit cages I made for a friend were nice, but geez, cutting six dadoes in a 24"x60" piece of melamine (well, four of them) on a ShopSmith was a tremendous PITA! (not my ShopSmith, but you do what you gotta do)

I can't imagine how easy that would be with the Festool System.

A couple of new questions:
Would I miss out on any capabilities by getting the TS55 rather than the TS75? These tools will be a lifetime investment (especially considering that they hold up to commercial use), but will the

How hard is it to remove the guide rail from the MFT? Between the two guide rails in the TS55/MST1080 package, there's 97" of length.

Likewise, how hard is it to remove the top from the MFT? I could see many great ideas being possible with a "custom" top with a dedicated jig and story board.

Thanks for all the help, guys!

Jason

 

[ScottS]

Woo hoo! Are you sure we're not related? It sounds like we're in the same boat. I already have two drill presses (one will be finding a new home). I emailed Woodpecker and they said their PlungeLift does not support the Festool routers. Bummer, but I wonder how hard it would be to adapt.

It's almost a shame to put a router as nice as the Festool in a table. Aside from that, the handle design doesn't work well with some tables/lifts. If I were you, I'd plan on getting a second router for the table. Consider some type of plunge router, the Hitachi M12 models seem popular, and a Router Raizer rather than a more expensive lift. I bought the under-table base for my Bosch 1617. It allows height adjustments from above the table, so I really haven't seen the need for a lift. Maybe if I used the router table more...

Would I miss out on any capabilities by getting the TS55 rather than the TS75? These tools will be a lifetime investment (especially considering that they hold up to commercial use), but will the

Obviously, the TS75 allows deeper cuts and weighs more. Most of my work is with 3/4" sheet goods, so I've been completely happy with the smaller saw.

How hard is it to remove the guide rail from the MFT? Between the two guide rails in the TS55/MST1080 package, there's 97" of length.

The guide rail is easy to remove. When making an 8' cut, it helps to have a bit of extra guide rail. Making a 96" cut with a 97" guide rail means that there's at most 1" of guide rail supporting the saw at the start of the cut. Granted, you can remove the riving knife from the saw and start with a plunge cut, but I find it much easier to use two joined 55" rails in this situation. I live having some extra rail at the beginning and end of the cut. And I really like not having to constantly install and remove the riving knife on the saw. It's not terribly difficult, but it does take time.

Likewise, how hard is it to remove the top from the MFT? I could see many great ideas being possible with a "custom" top with a dedicated jig and story board.

Removing the top is pretty easy. Lots of posts on the old Yahoo! discussion group about custom-made MFTs, special tops, etc. Somebody, probably John Lucas, mounted a router to an MFT. Several other people have purchased rails from Festool and used them to make MFTs capable of supporting an entire 4'x8' sheet of plywood.

As far as jigs, it seems that most people tend to make them as removable fixtures. Put a couple of dowels in the bottom and you can drop them on top of the MFT and they'll stay exactly where you put them!

 

[Ned]

Rather than a second 1400 rail, get the 1900 (75") one.  By itself, the 1900 will handle situations the 1400 won't, and joined together they can comfortably make 8-foot cuts, with plenty of takeoff and landing room for the saw.

I had two 1400s and a 1080 when I got the 1900.  I wish I'd got the 1900 first instead of the second 1400.

Don't forget to get two Guide Rail Connectors.

 

[Terry Flowers]

Scott, just a quick note, Jason has the TS55.  The riving knife retracts and does not have to be removed for plunge cuts, a distinct advantage of this saw (and the TS75).  I still agree thought with your comment that the longer rail length with more support before and after the cut is much better.

Terry

 

[woodshopdemos]

Consider some type of plunge router, the Hitachi M12 models seem popular, and a Router Raizer rather than a more expensive lift.

Becareful with this name. Yes, the Hitachi M12V with routerraizer was a great combination. The new Hitachi M12VC (Ithink that is name) looks like a modern version but the router raiser will not be able to be used. Hitachi has there own plunge handle and it works from above the router only...and that defeats it for table use in my estimation. They have made the plunge thread one that cannot easily be brought thru the base. I talked to the RouterRaiser people and they do not plan to make anything for this great (ex) router. I think the new choice goes to Triton 3.5...I havent got one yet but will shortly.
For big bucks, Milwaukee/Jessem has come out with a 3.5 hp router with an external speed control...it is meant to fit into a Jessem lift. I hope to have one of these soon too but it is pricey. ABout $1200 with all the table...and yes that exceeds costs of many shapers.

 

[Dan Clark]

John,

Hi.  I think the name is M12V2.  I believe the M12VC is another beast.  I like Hitachi tools (one router + two nailers), but I'm not too fond of the Star Wars paint scheme.  OTOH, it's easy to find in your shop. 

I have the M12V + Router Raizer.  When I get some time (some year), I'm going to buy a router table top and build a cabinet or legs.

Dan.

 

[ScottS]

Good point, John. I'd forgotten that the M12V was replaced by the M12V2 (3.25HP). In addition, they've also released the M12VC, a 2.25HP router.

FWIW, the Router Raizer website says that their RZ100 Kit now works with both the M12V2 and the M12VC!

 

[Loren Hedahl]

What do you think about a bench saw for those bevel cuts and narrow rips?  I have wondered what I would replace my old 9 in. Sears aluminum frame RAS with when it bites the dust.

I see DeWalt has a new model out, with 2 amps more power, the same fence and a more rugged looking case for about $140 less.  Bosch & Ridgid also have entries, but up in the $500 plus range.

Loren

Will you miss having a tablesaw? Perhaps. The tools do have some limitations. Bevel cuts with the saw are awkward. So is rip cutting narrow pieces of wood, like you'd use for a face frame. Both problems could be solved with jigs if you did them frequently. Obviously, power and capacity may be an issue. If you've got a big hunk of 16/4 hardwood lying around you're probably going to need more than a TS55. The MFT1080 is a great tool, but a bit fiddly. I find that whenever I move mine (which is often) I need to check the setup and accuracy. I find that if I don't square the fence every time the table is moved, that I end up with cuts that are just a bit off. Not enough to ruin a project, but enough so that I notice.