festool c12

[James Watriss]

OK, no more 2 AM cranky posting for James.

Let me ask, to be fair. Tom, what advantages do you find in the Centrotec system in particular?

I do like this drill, it's done well by me, all things considered. And if I had to pare down to only one, I'd keep it over the others. (though I'd miss the impact's not camming out of screw heads.) 

I still question the alternate hex standard, even with the corners ground down, regular fast release hex bits don't lock in properly in the Centrotec chuck. The shank is too short. But cross- compatibility issues aside, maybe I'm missing something. So, what is it I'm missing?

 

[mwhafner]

James,

I think that you are trying to compare the C12 to an impact driver, and there is no comparison.  Most drills don't directly accept hex bits directly, so even having that ability, even if proprietary, is an advantage of the Festool system. 

 

[James Watriss]

M, You make a very good observation. I'm pretty spoiled by my impact driver. But I've also seen more and more drills coming out that use hex shank instead of 3 jaw chucks, at least for around the house and some industrial purposes, including a very fancy dual mode impact driver/drill from Makita. I think the sheer utility of the 3 jaw will ensure that it remains a mainstay, but that's not really the topic of conversation.

I'm struck by the almost deliberate incompatibility of the centrotec system. If you grind the edges down on a regular hex shank, and insert it into the Ctec chuck, so that it locks, it won't engage the drive shaft. And a Centrotec bit is designed to NOT fit into a regular hex shank holder.

That said, the offset chuck does a very good job of holding a hex shank bit, so it's clear that Festool understands that there is a standard out there, and that there is a use for them. They just won't offer a quick disconnect chuck that goes direct to the driveshaft to hold one. Maybe there are patent issues at stake or something, but the factors involved seem to indicate that they are very much aware of the design that is widely used, and choose instead to do something deliberately incompatible for their own bits. So if you want to do quick change bits, you need to buy Festool's hex shank, instead of the regular ones, or buy their adapter, which will work, this is true. Either way, they make more money. The idea works, too, to a point... I did buy the metric bit set. And I'm thinking about the replaceable bit Ctec system that's supposed to be due out later... though there's already a good enough replaceable bit set out there in hex shank from a company called Snappy. Their bits are decent enough, but they're also replaceable, which puts them head and shoulders above most hex shank bits... because the implication is that you can use the holder for a better bit if it dulls or breaks.

The potential is there to have a directly connected hex shank system, I'm just wondering why Festool won't use it that way.

 

[tbellemare]

James:

There are a few things I really like about the Centrotec system. I often get in a situation where I'm up on a ladder and it's inconvenient to come down and I want to drill a hole and then put in a screw, several times repeatedly. With just the drill and a couple of pockets or a nail apron, I can carry everything I need for different sizes and tight fits. I know I can change bits with the jacobs style chuck but just popping one out and the other in saves so much time and effort. I also tend to stick with fasteners that have a star drive (torx for most of us).

The latest NA offering is a series of Centrotec drill bit holders for HSS twist drills. You get the holder, 3 drills, and a hex key. When those three drills wear out or break, you replenish with the Festool 10-pack of replacement drills or whatever brand you want of that size. I really like that...

Tom

 

[mwhafner]

I agree with your premise, but a touch of proprietary seems to come with the black and green.  For my purposes, the ability to use standard hex bits in the Centrotec holder is enough.  

Impact drivers are, IMHO, one of the best tool developments of recent years.  

One thing that I can't get over is the reaction I see when I put the C12 in the hands of a non-Festoolian.

 

[James Watriss]

Agreed... Impact drivers are a gift from on high.

I get similar reactions, but I also get the questions on cost, and turned up noses, in spite of their high opinion of the tool.

There was an essay in recent years about how this country has been spoiled by cheap, 'disposable' tools. Seems more and more evident as time goes on, and I wonder sometimes how that trend will evolve, or die out. Big box stores can really only shave out so much in the name of cost reduction before the decline in quality and durability becomes pretty steep.

Meanwhile I have an old Milwaukee worm drive with cast aluminum body pieces that looks like it was contemporary with the model A, and runs like a freight train. I'm sure at the time the cost was on par with what we'd pay now for Festool.

 

[tbellemare]

I have an old drill. It's a 1/2" Skil with an aluminum body that I got from my Dad before he went to that big Union Meeting in the sky.

I have no idea how old it is but I remember it from when I was a kid. It still works like it did then but the cord is a lot stiffer.

I use my C 12 instead.

Tom

 

[Joe Jensen]

OK, I'll give a counter view. I have tons of Festool, love their quality and attention to detail.  I also love the technology in the C12.  But, I'm a T handle drill guy.  It's the form factor that I like.  I never felt the TDK series were best in class (like the C12) so I didn't buy a Festool drill.  I have a 15.6V NiMH Panasonic Drill/Driver, a 12V NiMH Panasonic digital impact driver, and 4 Bosch Lion mini drills and drivers.

Then came the T15+3. I finally gpt to play with one at the dealer a couple weeks ago and I was sold.  Finally C12 technology in a T handle drill.

The salesman who helped me at Woodcraft works at the same company I do and we were chatting about drills.  I told him I was really looking forward to seeing the T15+3 and he said they had one in back as a demo.  While we walked back, he told me he was saving for a C12 because it's so small and powerful.  Once we took the T15+3 out of the box and placed it next to the C12, it was clear that the T15+2 is also very compact.  Without batteries, the T15+3 is maybe 1/4" taller, and 1/4" to 1/2" longer from front to back.  If you think about it, the motors are the same so the size of the drills is about the same.  After comparing them side to side, the salesman changed his mind and he is now saving for the T15 instead.

I'd suggest comparing them side by side before deciding.

 

[Joe Jensen]

James:

Before you give up on the Centrotec system, please take a look at this page. The Centrotec system has definite advantages and the drills can still be used with industry standard hex bits.

Tom

Yup, Centrotec is fantastic if you only need access to a small range of Metric drills, and don't need robertson.  If you do, then Centrotec has zero advantage over everyone else.  Nobody says you can't put extensions and adaptors in, but if doing that, why not just use a regualar keyless chucK?

 

[mwhafner]

There was an essay in recent years about how this country has been spoiled by cheap, 'disposable' tools. Seems more and more evident as time goes on, and I wonder sometimes how that trend will evolve, or die out.

You hit the nail on the head.  I bought a Makita 5007 20 years ago, and think that I paid about $130 for it at a local hardware.  This was before the Big Boxes really hit our area.  Now, you can buy the equivalent (feature wise) model for $99 at the Depot.  Adjusted to inflation, it should now cost about $232.  

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

See, I hate impact drivers, too noisey.  I have 3, not sure where they are at.

There are companies out there that make all sorts of bits and such that fit the Centrotec you just have to look.

I wont spoil the surprise for you though.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

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So, what is the surprise?  And when is Festool going to announce their new impact driver, the one with the sound canceling technology so it quickly becomes the tool of choice for art and bank burgulars?  (Just kidding, but no doubt they could implement some noise canceling technology if they wanted to!!  Some day the noise generated by impact drivers may become an OHSA issue.)  I've have been hanging on the edge regarding purchase of a Festool drill for several years.  I am mostly interested due to the specialty chucks.  But I probably don't use my battery powered drill often enough to justify the cost, especially the cost of batteries that will go dead in a few years or so, and for which future replacements may not be available or are likely to cost more than buying a new Makita drill complete with a pair of batteries and charger.  Centrotec is a mixed blessing/disadvantage to me.  And as some others have stated, why no Robertson (square drive) bits?  I have heard all the excuses about them, and they appear to be just that - excuses.

Dave R.

 

[Frank-Jan]

The protool impactdriver made in the festoolfactory is all but silent, it is more what other companies refer to as an impact wrench, without the centrotec adapter, it can take sockets directly, can be put in normal driver mode with electronic clutch, and has a 2speed regular drillmode.

BUT makita has been making an impactdriver with soundmuffling, they call it an "impulse"driver (they market it for use in hospitals and such though, they don't focus on the burglary-trade ).
I heard it in use at a demonstration a while back, and it makes an odd "wobbling" sound. The silent operation comes at the cost of having only about 1/5 of the torque of the regular impactdriver, for double the price.
Makita claims the hydraulic damping system for the impact mechanism makes it 8x more silent than a regular impact (but "silent" is relative.. it still produces up to 80dB(A), less vibration is another claimed benefit.

Link to protool impact
Link to makita impulse driver

 

[Bob Marino]

I am mostly interested due to the specialty chucks.  But I probably don't use my battery powered drill often enough to justify the cost, especially the cost of batteries that will go dead in a few years or so, and for which future replacements may not be available or are likely to cost more than buying a new Makita drill complete with a pair of batteries and charger.  

Dave,

On the new drills, Festool is offering  its' 3 year warranty on the batteries too. Also, Festool supports tools and accessories for at least 7 years after they are discontinued. Centrotec aside, the brushless motor tecnology, accessory chucks (right angle and eccentric) light weight and ergonomics really help set the Festool drills apart from their competition.

Bob