Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?

[mino]

Made in China. Made in Germany. Made in XYZ does not tell you anything of the quality of the product.

Only, "made by company ABC at a plant CDE using a technique of FGH" can. Within means.

That said, moving production to a cheaper location AND keeping prices the same is not all that OK with me. But we will have to take this one with Bessey I am afraid.

Festool sells them around the Bessey price. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. So fine there with me. But even if they were a lot more expensive, that would be fine - as Bessey is the maker here, not Festool.

About a year ago, in Europe Bessey tried to sell these cheaper at about €15/$20+VAT or so. Unfortunately I bought mine just before I became aware these are Bessey clamps ... so not savings for me.

Then they increased prices to €25+VAT again. I guess Bessey was "testing waters" if reduced prices can increase their volume. It probably did not, so they just went back to their original value-based pricing. Not happy about that one iota.

Besides that, today Made in China (Taiwan) or Made in P.R.C or made in R.O.C (Taiwan) or made in China (mainland) does not mean anything. There are companies in both places which make cutting edge stuff as well as those which make crap. Usually, if you do not have a crappy rep, you get what you pay for. Same as everywhere.

 

[JonathanJung]

[popcorn]

After hearing some of your replies confirming the move of Festool away from their own country, and seeing that the comparable Bessey unit is only slightly cheaper, I decided to just use the ones I got in. It won't be quite as enjoyable grabbing the non-German ones, but they do work the same. The quality was only part of my concern. Mostly I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting fraudulent product.

Thing is, I'm not happy any time a company goes overseas, at the potential neglect of their immediate community and their own country. I believe each manufacturer big and small needs to realise that every step they make away from manufacturing in their own country is a step away from keeping locals employed and local business supported.

So, glad for all the input, related or not to my question!

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=57948]ChuckM[/member]  “The 14" DT clamps ($100 Cdn for 6) are from an old welder who recently retired... He didn't think the Bessey DT clamps could beat his Chinese clamps.”

Are you referring to some Chinese clamps that can be bought or some clamps the welder made?
If Chinese clamps do you know where to buy them?

 

[ChuckM]

Michael,

They're made in China. Each weighs about 9.2 lbs, much heavier than similar ones from Bessey's (made in Germany) that I once used. So the extra weight may be a plus (thicker iron) or a negative (heavier to handle) depending on how one looks at it.

Google didn't find any Chinese sources for such F-style deep throat clamps.

Before this score, 5" is the deepest reach of clamps (made in Taiwan) that I've owned:https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/sho...y-deep-throat-fast-acting-clamps?item=03F0512

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
That said, moving production to a cheaper location AND keeping prices the same is not all that OK with me. But we will have to take this one with Bessey I am afraid.

As a consumer, I understand and concur with your sentiment. One Mercedes Benz model here is sold at a Honda's price...because it's made in Mexico. People aren't dumb to pay top dollars for just a German brand, but not made in Germany.

However, another way to look at it from the manufacturer's standpoint is competition. If it didn't move the production, it might not be able to keep the price, and would have to raise it.  So in that sense, it could argue that the price has been "lowered" by outsourcing.

I haven't looked into the Bridge City Tools/ Harvey pricing. I suppose a discount factor has been built into the pricing for goods now produced by Harvey. Here in Canada, you can get Made in Canada Roots, or Made in Asia ( China, Vietnam, Nepal, etc.) Roots products. They're fairly priced differently.

 

[DeformedTree]

Problem is companies don't give folks a choice to actually see how it would work out. If companies came out and had "the same" product and listed one as the "made in motherland" version, and or along with that "full featured", and then had the discount version and made clear it's made in other places, then people would be able to decide what they want.  Obviously this is hard, but some companies do this to various degrees.

New Balance has steadily ramped up making shoes in the US, they cost a bunch more, but folks buy them, they are willing to pay.
Companies like John Deere will sell you a real john deere at a John Deere dealer, and you will pay a ton. Or you can buy a "john deere" at home depot, it's cheap junk.

People generally are fine with paying more when they get what they want and they see where the money goes.  But the way most companies do it, they just botch the whole deal. When companies start doing cost cutting because they think folks want "cheap cheap cheap" it's when things go down hill.  When companies sell thru big box stores and such, this becomes a major issue. The retailers are the ones who force the drive downwards more than anyone else. Not the manufactures, not the buyers.

 

[RussellS]

Thing is, I'm not happy any time a company goes overseas, at the potential neglect of their immediate community and their own country. I believe each manufacturer big and small needs to realise that every step they make away from manufacturing in their own country is a step away from keeping locals employed and local business supported.

This thread/topic has gotten away from Festool.  What you write sounds good and makes sense, somewhat.  But consider this example.  Amazon today employs tens and tens of thousands of people in the USA.  Many tens of thousands of USA employees.  And Amazon sells lots of Chinese and Vietnamese and Thailand and Taiwan and Philippine stuff.  If they only sold USA made stuff, their sales would be miniscule.  And they would only employ a few hundred people at most.  Or less.  Maybe ten people in total.  So you would have tens and tens and tens of thousands of unemployed Amazon people without jobs if Amazon did not sell Chinese stuff.  Would unemployed Amazon employees support local businesses?

 

[Paul_HKI]

Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need, no matter where it's made, more people could have the spending power required to support local businesses manufacturing locally and paying more than minimum wages for pick and pack warehouse operatives.  Amazon sucks the life out of local businesses, local economies and does more harm than good to the earning abilities of their average employees.  If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place.  More local employment, more ability for everyone to develop their skills and pursue meaningful work, rather than the nonsense that is spending your working life in a chain of warehouses handling something you have contributed NOTHING towards. 

At the end of the day, Amazon doesn't care about the average American worker, consumer or business.  As soon as they can automate the thing that's done by hand, they will.  They're not a great example of anything except rampant consumerism at its worst.

 

[JeremyH.]

Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need, no matter where it's made, more people could have the spending power required to support local businesses manufacturing locally and paying more than minimum wages for pick and pack warehouse operatives.  Amazon sucks the life out of local businesses, local economies and does more harm than good to the earning abilities of their average employees.  If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place.  More local employment, more ability for everyone to develop their skills and pursue meaningful work, rather than the nonsense that is spending your working life in a chain of warehouses handling something you have contributed NOTHING towards. 

At the end of the day, Amazon doesn't care about the average American worker, consumer or business.  As soon as they can automate the thing that's done by hand, they will.  They're not a great example of anything except rampant consumerism at its worst.

I'm with you. But it seems harder to do one's best to contribute to that when it's all willy-nilly not-sure where things are from.

 

[DeformedTree]

Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need, no matter where it's made, more people could have the spending power required to support local businesses manufacturing locally and paying more than minimum wages for pick and pack warehouse operatives.  Amazon sucks the life out of local businesses, local economies and does more harm than good to the earning abilities of their average employees.  If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place.

Problem is you are heading down a false path. A myth of the free market and people choosing.  Folks don't have a choice. When companies all decided to make a shift, you end up with either you don't buy anything, or you buy something you don't like the option. Any product market, the companies in it generally move as one, if one company does something, the others react. Same with the retailers.

Rarely does a company make a bad move, and folks have a perfectly good option to shift to, with no draw backs.  Plus people don't generally know the shifts happened.

Consumer choice driving things just isn't real. As consumers rarely have much choice in things.

 

[Cheese]

If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place. 

So if Amazon employs just 10 people, will that have an impact on the 24 hour shipping I need when I order parts from Micro Fence that designs equipment in California, sources US materials for machining and machines those items in California?  Just curious..

 

[AlexThePalex]

And Amazon sells lots of Chinese and Vietnamese and Thailand and Taiwan and Philippine stuff.  If they only sold USA made stuff, their sales would be miniscule.  And they would only employ a few hundred people at most.  Or less.  Maybe ten people in total. 

Amazon was already a billion dollar business when they only sold books, were it started. I think those books weren't made in Asia.

So you would have tens and tens and tens of thousands of unemployed Amazon people without jobs if Amazon did not sell Chinese stuff.  Would unemployed Amazon employees support local businesses?

Chinese stuff is only as cheap as it is because they have legalised what we call slave labour. If our markets weren't flooded with products made by slave labour, we would have to produce those products locally, and that would yield a lot more jobs for local people, who could then in turn support local businesses.

By the way, Amazon employees sometimes make so little they qualify for food stamps. With their income, you think they're supporting a lot of other businesses anyway?

 

[mino]

Chinese stuff is only as cheap as it is because they have legalised what we call slave labour.

Eh, they did not "legalize" it in any way it was "legal" in Europe in the late 19th century. They simply did not have adequate labor protection laws.

That said, this is not why China is way cheaper these days. Not anymore. Their workers often make more than same position in US or Central/East Europe.

Their current advantage is twofold. An economy of (huge) scale. Second is a regulation environment which is not dogmatic (and is a bit corrupt, but "non-dogmatic" is key here). These combined allow for not only lower production costs, but way, way higher agility which again results in market advantage.

The same way Detroit steamrolled over competition in the 50s by efficiencies of sheer scale, China is now steamrolling the ROW in almost every field which they have mastered.

If it is 1/2 the cost to build the (SAME class) new plant in China versus modernizing an existing plant in Europe/US it is slam dunk. The fact all your suppliers are within 100 miles if mild climate flatlands of the new plant is then a cherry on the cake only. Even if you paid the workers the SAME (PPP) and used the SAME, you would STILL have lower costs. And many companies operate this way as coastal china is not cheap labor place anymore. The times are long gone when the salaries were 1/4 PPP and 1/20 nominally.

The only reason you do not want to move production there is risk mitigation and brand value. Legal, distance (lack of agility), geopolitical risk etc. are mainly on the other side of the equation.

The best strategy is to have plants and R&D sites everywhere - make something in China, something in India, something in Europe, something in US, etc. That way you can leverage the comparative advantages of each and at same get positive image across the Global markets - as you can call your self "local" in multiple markets in one way or other.

Ref these Bessey clamps, IMO their high prices could be justified by the production in Germany as these were made on a cost+ model there. That is no longer the case and I see no reason to pay $40 for something which no longer costs $20 to make but closer to $10 or so.

I would not be surprised if Festool decided to subcontract these to a different company or pushed for a better price with Bessey as the clones swamp the market and make the Festool version uncompetitive.

EDIT: typo fix 1000 miles -> 100 miles (Shenzhen area etc.)

 

[JeremyH.]

Having stuff made in China is tricky because you have to have contracts just right or it'll never work out how you want. And even then having anything made 100% in one place is risky. Generally speaking you want multiple parts made in entirely different facilities. The reason is they will sell the same thing you're having made somewhere else. Makes you wonder how the scales of efficiency would be if it weren't for all counterfeit stuff being produced by the same people making the licensed stuff. (and often just by someone else entirely different)

 

[mino]

Having stuff made in China is tricky because you have to have contracts just right or it'll never work out how you want. And even then having anything made 100% in one place is risky. Generally speaking you want multiple parts made in entirely different facilities. The reason is they will sell the same thing you're having made somewhere else.

Yep.
What you really want is your own plant. The moment you subcontract anything what is not a commodity you are actually paying up your competition to tool up and wipe you off the market once the contract expires or even sooner ..

 

[AlexThePalex]

Eh, they did not "legalize" it in any way it was "legal" in Europe in the late 19th century. They simply did not have adequate labor protection laws.

Nice joke. They don't have any protection laws.

That said, this is not why China is way cheaper these days. Not anymore. Their workers often make more than same position in US or Central/East Europe.

Also nice joke.

And you know what? China is completely free of corona.

 

[rst]

A local company, Great Coasters, designs and build traditional wooden rollers all over the world including a dozen or so in China.  every time he sends over equipment , if they send so new machinery unless it is something he sent before, the shipment is impounded for a couple weeks.  He knows that the impoundment is so the Chinese can copy the design and that it is one of the costs of doing business. 

 

[mino]

A local company, Great Coasters, designs and build traditional wooden rollers all over the world including a dozen or so in China.  every time he sends over equipment , if they send so new machinery unless it is something he sent before, the shipment is impounded for a couple weeks.  He knows that the impoundment is so the Chinese can copy the design and that it is one of the costs of doing business.

That impounding has nothing with copying. Yes they do copy, but not in such a way.

It is actually the same if someone tries to import something into EU (US) which is nor registered/qualified by the authorities. They first need to classify it, value it, consider it acceptable to be imported and only then will allow it to be released. If it is something they already have a record of - the addressee can refer to the previous sample which was already categorized and the process is faster.
Now, the time the tools spend in duties/import check IS used for state-level espionage. But the delays have nothing to do with it. You do not need a week to x-ray a machine these days ...

 

[rst]

Great Coasters know they copy as they have seen copies of their machinery at sites other than their own.

 

[RussellS]

Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need, no matter where it's made, more people could have the spending power required to support local businesses manufacturing locally and paying more than minimum wages for pick and pack warehouse operatives.  Amazon sucks the life out of local businesses, local economies and does more harm than good to the earning abilities of their average employees.  If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place.  More local employment, more ability for everyone to develop their skills and pursue meaningful work, rather than the nonsense that is spending your working life in a chain of warehouses handling something you have contributed NOTHING towards. 

At the end of the day, Amazon doesn't care about the average American worker, consumer or business.  As soon as they can automate the thing that's done by hand, they will.  They're not a great example of anything except rampant consumerism at its worst.

In your first sentence you write "Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need".  Lets replace "substandard junk" with "Festool".  So your first sentence now reads "Maybe if people stopped buying Festool they don't need".  How many people on this forum NEED Festool products?  Need Festool to make a living?  Not you like using Frestool because its good or you enjoy making woodworking items for fun and Festool improves that.  NEED Festool to stay alive, earn money to live, feed themselves, provide a house, medical care.

You are advocating we, everyone, stop buying Festool and put them out of business because no one, other than professional carpenters, need Festool.  OK, sounds good.  Only professionals who use Festool to earn a living are allowed to buy Festool and you, me, and most who do not earn our living using Festool cannot, should not waste out money on Festool.  We would use our saved money to spend locally on local made goods we NEED.  I don't know if Festool sells enough to professional woodworkers to stay in business or not.  Or if they make the majority of their money from selling to people who do not really need their products.

Later on you write about people using their money to support businesses manufacturing locally.  Sounds good.  Festool is in Germany, not midwest USA, so kick out Festool.  Locally only.  I like cinnamon and chocolate.  For desserts.  But their is none grown locally, cocoa for chocolate.  So can't buy any of that food.  I bought a laptop through Amazon about 10 years ago.  Super price is why I bought it, and great specs at the time.  There are no computer makers anywhere locally, so no computer for me I guess.  Maybe this buying and supporting business locally doesn't really work so well.  At least not the way some folks make it out to be.
Heck, even the electricity I use in my house is made by burning coal shipped in from Wyoming on railcars.

In your last paragraph you write Amazon does not care about "the average American worker, consumer or business."  I disagree.  Amazon thrives the more people use their services.  So they want the whole economy and everyone to have lots of money to spend on stuff Amazon sells.  Amazon wants everyone to be too prosperous so they have to worry how they are going to spend money.  And you mention Amazon is "a great example of anything except rampant consumerism at its worst."  I think the American population is the rampant consumer.  Amazon just helps fulfill that disposition of the American population.  Its the people who are the problem, not Amazon.

People like, love spending money and accumulating stuff.  Amazon helps fulfill that need, desire.  China helps fulfill it too by making cheap stuff.  Everyone likes to spend less than more.  Would people be better off buying fewer high quality items at a higher price.  Yes.  But I'm not too optimistic about changing people for the better.