Festool CMS discontinued

[Cheese]

Ok, that’s fair...but I still have a knee-jerk reaction to Festool claiming that these are truly imperial tools when they can only be indexed in metric increments.  It's rather like driving an "Imperial" car with a "Metric" speedometer.  [eek]

I prefer the metric tools but if you’re going to brag about going imperial... then do so. Festool is still just performing the shell game. Just another black mark against their shameless marketing group.

 

[pettyconstruction]

I feel that Festool will bring out a Saw Stop type unit to replace it.
A very portable and modular unit would do the trick.
Cheers, Charlie

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[DeformedTree]

I feel that Festool will bring out a Saw Stop type unit to replace it.
A very portable and modular unit would do the trick.
Cheers, Charlie

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Saw stop or not, bringing the CS saws to N.A would address part of the issue, it still doesn't address the router side.  Thus why I think using the CS saw chassis but make a router equivalent could be an option.  Then have all the add on's interchangeable.  It would be overall more stuff ($$$) and more equipment than a user in theory would have with the CMS setup with router and saw inserts, but the trade off there might not be so bad.  If they are making a decision to ditch the interchange/adapter path and instead have a common interface to a dedicated machine, and then offer a saw, router, sander, etc all in that same chassis with tables, sliders, fences, etc all the same for them, I think people would be good. It would be less futzing around. And if power, dust, etc are all in the exact same location it makes it easy for people to swap stuff around.  I would just ask they make these core units the form factor of a Maxi Systainer, or fit in one. So people can pack the tool away with the systainers very nicely.

Obviously the loss of the CMS saw options in places outside N.A. isn't as big of a deal since those places have the dedicated saws. But they will still have a whole when it comes to router setup so I would still expect this to be an issue for folks.

Problem right now is if Festool is going that route, they better have something in the pipe fast.  Otherwise there could be a multi-year gap with nothing for that market.  Maffel might be happy about this right now, but of course they don't have anything CMS router equivalent that I'm aware of, or at least nothing in N.A.

 

[Sanderxpander]

I have to wonder how many people actually use the CMS router option as a mobile unit. You can get cheaper and better router tables/fences for less money than just the CMS router plate kit and while the OF1400 and 2200 are great routers, they're kind of overkill in a table.

Portability seems the main advantage of the CMS over dedicated tables, even though many green goggled fans use it stationary.

 

[GarryMartin]

Portability seems the main advantage of the CMS over dedicated tables, even though many green goggled fans use it stationary.

Not *just* portability; the ability to make use of it in small spaces is also a large consideration as is the ability to make use of other elements of the overall "system" such as the Kapex extensions for infeed and outfeed support for instance.

 

[Stone Message]

Portability seems the main advantage of the CMS over dedicated tables, even though many green goggled fans use it stationary.

Not *just* portability; the ability to make use of it in small spaces is also a large consideration as is the ability to make use of other elements of the overall "system" such as the Kapex extensions for infeed and outfeed support for instance.

I agree with Garry - my small (ish) workshop needs something of the size of the CMS for both router and table saw use. I have seen no other small saw table that comes anywhere close to the quality, accuracy and dust collection capability of the CMS-TS.

However, if Festool are discontinuing the CMS that exists today you can be sure that something at least as good if not better will replace it.

Peter

 

[DeformedTree]

I have to wonder how many people actually use the CMS router option as a mobile unit. You can get cheaper and better router tables/fences for less money than just the CMS router plate kit and while the OF1400 and 2200 are great routers, they're kind of overkill in a table.

Portability seems the main advantage of the CMS over dedicated tables, even though many green goggled fans use it stationary.

Small/Compact are not exactly one in the same as portable or to say Portability is not exactly the reason some people want small/compact.  I think a lot of folks simply want to be able to nicely pack it away in a cabinet when not in use.

Still, I can't see I've seen anything like a CMS for routers.  You have the basic "table" deal you buy at the big box store that doesn't do much but hold a router.  Or you get into big DIY assembly of random parts that people build.  I would be curious if anyone can point to something that is the same as a CMS router setup, not a "buy this", "add this companies lift", etc.  The turn key aspect of it is a winner, and the addition that you could swap it with a saw and such is what put it over the top.  Just adding up various parts to build a nice router setup, I don't see the CMS as being much more expensive or more expensive at all.  It's not like you can buy just a lift and call it a day.  Similar to people who think they can build a MFT for less.  You can't.  You can build a thing for less, but it is a matter of what did you trade off.

I would say an OF2200 is over kill just to mount in a CMS, but that is where if they made a dedicated unit then they could save on a bunch of cost.  But of course it gets back to the whole benefit is that you still have a router to use for anything else and when you need it in the table, you have it. For a lot of folks the hassle of swapping the parts around is worth it if it means you save the price of buying multiple routers, or space savings, etc.

I'm just a person with a small house, and not much room for a workshop when all is done.  When I get my house done, stuff will either need to be able to be stored away for periods of time, or be something that is easy to resell.  This rules lots of big things are out, and DIY home brew stuff is out.  If I had room, I would just skip most festool stuff and get a CNC router setup I could fit a 4x8 sheet in.  Net cost wise it might be cheaper than lots of saws, routers, lr32 setups, and so forth.  I just don't have the space.

 

[DeformedTree]

The CMS-BS-120 didn't seem to sell that well at all.

I was never sure if it was a N.A. thing or what that finding information on the sander setup was very hard, even when looking it up in other countries.  Of course my study into it stopped when I realized it took sand paper size that doesn't exist in N.A.  so even if someone took the effort to sneak the parts in, they would have to find a foreign source for sanding belts.

I appreciate them trying to make the most out of the CMS, but the sander setup might have been a step to far verses just buying a run of the mill bench top sander.  But like anything else, once you guy the chassis,  maximize what you can use it for.  I don't know how many folks own/use beltsanders anymore, so that combination of things might have made it a low seller. 

 

[Cheese]

If I had room, I would just skip most festool stuff and get a CNC router setup I could fit a 4x8 sheet in.  Net cost wise it might be cheaper than lots of saws, routers, lr32 setups, and so forth.  I just don't have the space.

I hear you on that one...all this gear just adds up to more needed space. This reminds me of my neighbor that has a cabin in Wisconsin...a nice leisurely 1 hour drive from the cities. He needed an out-building to hold some of his grass mowing equipment so we built one.

Then he needed another to hold his collection of classic Cadillacs...so we built another one.

Then he needed another to house his Dingo and collection of 1950 Ford tractors along with his power tools...it never ends.

I'm attempting to scale down at this point...how much stuff do I need to efficiently produce a product?

With full CNC and hand held CNC (think Shaper) coming of age, how many of these tools are redundant?  I can wax rhapsodic about the old days when I needed 3-4 tools to produce a particular item or I can simply acquiesce to the fact that producing that same item now only requires one modern CNC tool and it will be generated faster and closer to the original specifications than ever imagined.

I rather like that...

 

[DeformedTree]

I think this is a future companies like Festool (and their parent company) are having to address, and probably in part why they bought shaper.  A lot of tools exist due to history or function they way they due to history.  When it comes down to just producing the desired shape, there isn't a lot that a 3 axis mill can't do.  Can cut any 2D shape, put any hole pattern in, cut any recess, pocket, etc.  With router bits you get all the shapes you need.  Can do planning, thicknessing if you want too.  Need a domino groove, no problem.  Might need a fixture to put some parts on edge.

Probably not going to be someones go to for a cross cut, but you could set one up to if you really wanted too.

For those of us that design parts in computers all day as is, it's a straight forward change.  Software is one of the biggest issues, but that is getting better all the time.  With machines in the couple grand range, you really need to take a look at the cost off all the traditional tools added up.

Honestly if they killed off the CMS with no replacement, the Shaper Origin might get more thought.  Still, the "classic" tools will be around for a while as they work good when you just need to cut something quick and simple. Or when you need to take it someplace (floor, roof, etc).

For sure though, if I was going in business, or starting fresh on building house from scratch,  I would find the space and set up a mill, skip a lot of other tools.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

There may be new saws on the way?
I have an email giving info about upcoming Festool roadshows, and it’s mentioned something like new products will be shown, including a saw with the Saw Stop safety technology etc.
So possibly CS50, CS70 and CMS upgrades or replacements, who knows?

 

[sancho57]

[member=69479]Jiggy Joiner[/member]

A English friend of mine sent me that flyer via email a couple of days ago.

Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.

Looking at it from a NA perspective, adding the saw stop techology might just be festools attempt to be able to get it through the UL and get their approval to be able to sell it here in NA.

fingers crossed.

though it would be quite pricey here. i think you could buy a saw stop cabinet saw for the price of the CS70 over here.

 

[Svar]

Still, I can't see I've seen anything like a CMS for routers.  You have the basic "table" deal you buy at the big box store that doesn't do much but hold a router.  Or you get into big DIY assembly of random parts that people build.  I would be curious if anyone can point to something that is the same as a CMS router setup, not a "buy this", "add this companies lift", etc.  The turn key aspect of it is a winner, and the addition that you could swap it with a saw and such is what put it over the top. 

Triton WorkCentre is a modular system similar to CMS. Work table / router / table saw / cross cut saw, all in one. Bunch of reviews on YouTube.
Wolfcraft has a modular system too (low budget, low quality), not available in the US.

 

[Svar]

Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.

Unlike CS70 the new one with Sawstop tech is not a pull saw. At least the prototype was not.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

[member=10147]jobsworth[/member] Hi Ron, yes what you say makes sense, I hope Festool's plans work out good for you, and also hopefully, we'll get to be able to buy the safety technology here.
I'm actually looking for a decent mobile table saw, I've hankered for an Erika 85e for quite some time but, I think I'll wait and see if Festool can pull something out of the bag  [thumbs up]

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.

Unlike CS70 the new one with Sawstop tech is not a pull saw. At least the prototype was not.

Hi Svar, is that because the technology would only work on a fixed head set up?

 

[Svar]

Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.

Unlike CS70 the new one with Sawstop tech is not a pull saw. At least the prototype was not.

Hi Svar, is that because the technology would only work on a fixed head set up?

I think it is possible to mount it on moving carriage as well. Perhaps it gets too complicated or bulky. You'd probably have to immobilize the carriage when the SawStop mechanism fires up.

 

[sancho57]

[member=69479]Jiggy Joiner[/member]

Ive been lusting after a Erica 85 myself. Im interested to see what the cost is of the new CS 70 if it gets over here. It better be pretty darned good and I mean over and above the Saw Stop Technology if they are going to ask the same as a Erica 85.

Thats about $4000 when ya add in some of the accessories.

 

[sancho57]

One thing about the saw stop is that when the thing goes off it destroys the blade and the cost of replacement for the mechanism isnt exactly cheap. I imagine in true festool fashion the replacement mechanism will cost a fortune

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

[member=15585]Svar[/member] Thanks, yes, makes sense.

[member=10147]jobsworth[/member] Yes, part of me thinks the Erika might be overkill but, I just love the saw, even taking into account it's hefty price tag. I have chased after a couple of really nice used examples but, they sell in the blink of an eye and I was just too late both times.
A CS70 would do for a lot of our needs but, there are time when I'd need to take advantage of the 85mm cut. Perhaps Festool will do a 90mm machine?  [blink]