Festool Guarantee

[barnowl]

Just to add...

If you decide to keep the 55" rail, there is a technique for connecting the rails.

Place your saw over the splice, and snug up the small adjustment knobs at the base of the saw, to tighten the saw to the rail.

This will align the rails perfectly.

Connect the top splice connector, loosen the saw's adjustment knobs slightly, remove the saw, and connect the bottom splice connector.

Hope that helps.

 

 

[Bob Marino]

I buy my Festool products at Lee Valley here in Canada (just bought a RTS400 this afternoon).  If I bought a guide rail, and wanted to return it because I was not satisfied with it, I guarantee you, Lee Valley would accept a return, no questions asked.  Again, 100 % guarantee they would accept a return, whether it was a "tool" or an "accessory".

For Festool, a premium tool manufacturer, to not consider a guide rail a tool, is a weak, weak argument, and inconsistent with what a premium tool manufacturer should stand for.  

By this same argument, would one not consider a hammer a tool ?  I don't think so.  

Trust me, Lee Valley is a quality retailer, selling quality tools (including Festool), they would not all of a sudden cop out on a technicality in an ambiguous guarantee.  

I am actually very surprised to hear this, and am confident Festool will change its policy on returns of "accessories", with enough feedback from Festool users.

Brian Livingstone, Nova Scotia, Canada.

Brian,

Earlier in the day I had written a more lengthy response, but somehow got lost in the sauce.  Your point about a hammer not being considered a tool is a good one. Anyhow, maybe this is the one downside of being a Festool dealer for 12 years is that you get immersed in that company's  item description - Festool tools are all the corded or battery driven items + the MFT's, accessories  are rails, connectors, edge guides, MFS rails etc, and consumables are abrasives, sanding pads, etc.  It never looked anything but obvious to me, others may think differently, but Shane is looking to  address  and clarify the terminology. 

I/we don't know the particulars of this individual case  - was the rail bought last week or last year?, so I can't/won't comment on another dealer's decision not to accept a used guide rail. However, there are companies like the mentioned Lee Valley (LL Bean, Lands End, etc) that have absolutely unlimited return policies - return anything at any time for any reason. But because Festool's policy (and most other companies) is not so unlimited, does not make  it is in any way stingy or unfair (my words, not yours). 

  Just as aside, years ago, when Home Depot was first taking root here, they had a very generous tool policy, but found after many contractors/customers were using them for a particular job and then returning  them, so they had to reassess their return policy. BTW, that was why when you'd buy a tool from HD  it was often a returned tool, repackaged and sold as new.  This is obviously not the case here, but meant to  bring it up as an example of an unlimited guaranty being no longer feasible for a company to continue.
 

  Bob

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I sometimes buy things at Lee Valley that I'm not really sure I need, because I am really sure that I can return them if not satisfied.  (In point of fact, I seldom actually return stuff, but its good to know I can).

It seems that it would be in Festool's interest to allow this for their accessories.  Sometimes the accessories are darn hard to figure out - just what does this thing do?  Especially router accessories.  So a "If this thing does what I think it does, I really need that" guy like me would be willing to take more risks.

Case in point, when it comes to the US, I'm probably gonna buy a Carvex and you know I will try it out and return it within 30 days if I can't get straight cuts on thick wood.  But Carvex accessories, sounds like a risk I might not take...

 

[Wooden Skye]

When I bought my TS 55, I bought an extra rail and the connectors.  I haven't had a problem with either and was really satisfied and never thought about returning.  But since I am planning on getting the 75" rail, and the OF 1400 and some accessories, this is a good thing to know.  However, Festool preaches their tools are part of a system, so I believe that some of the accessories should be covered under the return/guarantee policy.  This could open pandora's box, what is a true accessory and what accessory is truely part of the system.  I believe the guide rails are an integral part of the system.  

With that said, I can also see the point from a dealer perspective, that the taking back such items can be a lose leader and since it seems some dealers have different takes on the matter, then that is the individual dealers right.  Bob brought up HD, and they still have a tremendously liberal return policy.  They would take back your unwanted child if it had a SKU number in their system.  I worked there some time ago and it was truely amazing what was returned and what condition it was in.  People return pre hung doors with the jambs cracked or missing, lumber and plywood that was drilled, had nails and screws still in it or was cut wrong by the homeowner, and other things.  People would buy generators and then return once the power was back on.  The generator issue created such a lose for HD, that they changed their policy to not take back unless the box was still sealed.  Tools have always had the strictest return policy, but if you complain enough they will still take it back.  Which I don't think is right.

I guess clarification of the policy or input from the customers on what is integral to the system would help.  I would like to pose a question to some of the dealers.  Since Festool has set pricing, why not a set return policy that all must follow?  I would think that if more people knew that a specific dealer had a different (liberal) return policy, it would affect the dealers that follow the policy.  Does the affected dealer who may provide better service, have to compromise because other dealers aren't following the policy as written.

 

[mouppe]

The difference with HD is that they do not have to take the hit on the return, the supplier does. They order in such large quantities that they can exercise tremendous power over their suppliers. So they will order a large quantity, pay for what they sell, and return the excess, including customer returns. Same goes for most big retailers such as Walmart, Costco, Target, Tesco etc.

I may be wrong but I believe Festool dealers have no such arrangement so they have to be stricter with customer returns.

 

[sancho57]

Since its a fairly new rail, you could sell it here in the classifieds and get almost as much as you paid for it.

Then you can take that $$$ and put towards a longer rail.

 

[quiltedkoa]

Thanks for everyone's responses and input.  The point about the liberal return policy's of companies like LV and HD being abused is well taken.  Each individual company really does have to evaluate if their return policy is economically feasible to maintain.  I too have seen a lot of people abuse the return policy at HD and I just shake my  head.  I'd like to think that most woodworkers (especially those that are willing to spend top dollar on top quality tools) aren't the type to engage in such questionable returns.  It's just my guess that companies like LV tend to attract quality customers and not the average (or should I say below average joe) ethically speaking.  The bottom line in my mind is what kind reputation does a company want to create.  I tend to think high end companies, where service is paramount, are willing to occasionally eat the cost of a liberal return policy if it means maintaining real customer loyalty and maintaining it's brand in high regard. 

In my situation, I am within the 30 days and I actually wanted to spend more money at my dealer.  It really was up to my dealer and I actually enjoy shopping there, so I can't say I really blame them entirely.  I did use the extra track and I understand their logic of not accepting non-resellable items for returns/exchanges.  I remember reading the 30 day guarantee before I made my purchase.  I guess my issue is the lack of clear upfront disclosure.  Maybe dishonest was a bit strong of a word for me to use to describe Festool's guarantee policy, but that was my initial feeling after being told by festool I was out of luck if my dealer chose not to accept the return.  After reading this blog, I can now appreciate the distinction between "tool" and "accessory".  It seems a bit nitpicky, but I can accept that.  I just wish the guarantee policy made this clear at the very beginning.  To me, it's all about transparency and being upfront--to learn about the semantics of the return policy after the fact really hurts Festool's goodwill and that really is a shame.  I'm really surprised Festool hasn't addressed the issue of exact wording of their 30 day return policy since it appears I'm not the first to experience this situation.  Put an asterisk and list the exclusions, that seems like the way most companies are doing things.

Additionally, the logic of the additional track being an accessory can go either way.  As mentioned by someone else, what constitutes an accessory can a be a slippery slope.  But as I had mentioned to the Festool rep over the phone, (while I wasn't going to do this), under Festool's return policy, I could have very well returned the TS 55 with the track within the 30 period and purchase a new one with a longer track and keep the extra 55 track as an accessory.  Again, I am not going to do this, but there's is an obvious problem here.  Ultimately, I guess Festool and each individual dealer needs to ask whether their course of action is really worth it.  I definitely don't feel I was trying to advantage of Festool or my dealer.  And it would have been nice not having to even discuss this as an issue.  Am I happy with my Festool purchase...sure, for the most part.  Oh well...in the end, my dealer lost out on an extra sale this time around and while I think highly of Festool products, I have to admit I don't hold up Festool's reputation in quite as high regard as I once did.

 

[tbellemare]

I consider products like Festool's to be best handled as "consultative sales". I would much rather discuss what a customer is thinking, if they have any doubts or desires (that aren't being met), rather than receive a "blind purchase".

I try to answer all phone calls (512-428-9140) and emails as fast as I can. I have a website, an Amazon store, and I personally deal with locals. To me, these products are complex enough that demo's and discussion are valuable if the customer doesn't already have steely resolve to buy something.

I appreciate the 30-day policy but I don't consider it a substitute for talking it out ahead of the purchase... It is not uncommon that during discussions with customers, they reveal a misconception about the products they are considering buying. It is also quite common that they don't realize they can use something they already own to achieve a task and quite easily.

Tom

 

[sancho57]

Tom and I have had many conversations.

Bob and I have too.

So has Drew and I (My brick and Mortar supplier).

Ive had my brick and mortar supplier actually talk me out of buying a festool b/c I didn't need it, had a tool that would do what I wanted already.

Talking with your suppliers is awesome, its all about relationships.

Hey Tom hows that tankless water heater working for now that you had it for a while?

Modified to add:   

Also get to know your regional reps.

There is a festool demo day tomorrow so Im going over to pick Alans  brain.

That is if he is the guy now that his role has changed).

If its someone else Im gonna pick his brain .

I got a domino and LR 32 question

 

[Bob Marino]

I consider products like Festool's to be best handled as "consultative sales". I would much rather discuss what a customer is thinking, if they have any doubts or desires (that aren't being met), rather than receive a "blind purchase".

I try to answer all phone calls (512-428-9140) and emails as fast as I can. I have a website, an Amazon store, and I personally deal with locals. To me, these products are complex enough that demo's and discussion are valuable if the customer doesn't already have steely resolve to buy something.

I appreciate the 30-day policy but I don't consider it a substitute for talking it out ahead of the purchase... It is not uncommon that during discussions with customers, they reveal a misconception about the products they are considering buying. It is also quite common that they don't realize they can use something they already own to achieve a task and quite easily.

Tom

  Well said Tom. Being proactive - especially with customers new to Festool is the best way to ensure a satisfied customer - that they order what they need and not what they don't. No good dealer is there to simply take the coin.  Oddly enough, I'm also betting that the most often asked question after "which sander would you recommend?"  is "I want to cut sheetgoods, which rail would recommend?"

Bob

 

[tbellemare]

Hey Tom hows that tankless water heater working for now that you had it for a while?

It's pretty cool, Ron (ironic for a water heater). I ponied up for the condensing version so it spits water as it heats. Currently, I'm collecting it in a bucket. They have really sucked most of the energy out of the flue. It's supposedly 140F or lower going out the stack. I've noticed a difference in the gas bill that pretty much tracks the spiel.

One of the things I plan to do this weekend is remake the bottom of the closet it's in so that there is a catch pan that drains outside. It should be a little bit of a trick but not too big a deal. I'll take pictures...

The old tank had a drain pipe for the pressure relief but it is too high for this one. I also want some "leak security".

Tom

 

[tbellemare]

Oddly enough, I'm also betting that the most often asked question after "which sander would you recommend?"  is "I want to cut sheetgoods, which rail would recommend?"

Good one, Bob!

Don't forget, "What sandpaper should I use?". Festool has such a variety of excellent abrasives, it can be pretty daunting.

Tom

 

[nclemmons]

One thought on alignment -

I read a great tip on the FOG to cross cut the rail at a minimal amount, say 1/64", on a Kapex at 90 degrees and then butt the two ends together and that will give you a straight rail when connected.

If you don't have a Kapex or accurate miter saw, you might consider asking your dealer to do this if the ends are not exactly at 90 degrees.  It does no harm to the Kapex and would be a nice gesture on their part to help you ensure you are getting an accurate alignment.

I do agree with others here that the guarantee is not clear. 

Neil

 

[sancho57]

Good to know Tom. Im fixing my home up to sell . I plan on putting one of those fancy water heaters in the next house. Ill be calling ya in a few months.

 

[skids]

Hey Tom hows that tankless water heater working for now that you had it for a while?

It's pretty cool, Ron (ironic for a water heater). I ponied up for the condensing version so it spits water as it heats. Currently, I'm collecting it in a bucket. They have really sucked most of the energy out of the flue. It's supposedly 140F or lower going out the stack. I've noticed a difference in the gas bill that pretty much tracks the spiel.

One of the things I plan to do this weekend is remake the bottom of the closet it's in so that there is a catch pan that drains outside. It should be a little bit of a trick but not too big a deal. I'll take pictures...

The old tank had a drain pipe for the pressure relief but it is too high for this one. I also want some "leak security".

Tom

Hey Tom, why not rig one of these? Will it work in your application?

http://www.filterace.com/p-22-vcma-15ul-little-giant-condensate-pump-115v-with-out-ss.aspx?gclid=CObN2cTKmLUCFQyk4Aod90oAGg

 

[tbellemare]

That would likely work but I'm trying to make a sort of "fail safe" solution.

I recently had a hairline crack rear its ugly head in a fancy GE filter housing. Luckily, it didn't really cause significant issues but it made me realize the potential for problems is greater than I originally thought.

I have the ability to make a drain tray for the closet that contains the water heater and its water. I think it's probably worth the effort to make the bottom of the cavity a water collection/drain system.

Tom

 

[DevonC]

Betterly enterprises makes a jig to help with joining rails together, it clamps on to the 2 rails then you tighten the rail connectors and they are almost perfect.
http://www.betterleytools.com/

Here is a FOG thread about it also
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/betterley-straightline-connector/

 

[harry_]

I get where Festool is at with the warranty,.... tools have cords, etc... and it makes perfect sense to me.

However, I have to agree as inferred up-thread that there is a bit of 'common sense' ambiguity in the matter.

1). If one buys a TSx5, which comes with a rail. It has always been crystal clear (to me at least), that if you don't like it you can return it during the 30 days for a "FULL REFUND, No questions asked". I have never seen it suggested or implied here that one would be 'stuck' with the 'consumable' rail and the refund being ~$100 less.

2). If one buys a MFT/3 which comes with a rail. Again, it has always been crystal clear that if you don't like it you can return it during the 30 days for a "FULL REFUND, No questions asked". I have never seen it suggested or implied here either that one would be 'stuck' with the 'consumable' rail and the refund being ~$100 less.

In both of these cases it would be a very realistic assumption that these rails will have been used and their splinter strips cut, but yet a return on those rails would be deemed completely acceptable in both those instances.

So with that said, I would find it a bit `chafing` if a dealer would not allow a `return for "upgrade"` (in a reasonable time frame), since the OP was really asking the dealer if he could spend a little more money at that store if the dealer would help remove some of the 'hate' from the first rail purchase.

For the dealers out there that read this, I think this would fall under the category of "Selling Service". From what I am reading here in this thread, it is well withing your prerogative to refuse a return on the rail. Fine. [read that in the same manner that a woman says "fine".  ] The customer has the prerogative to buy the longer rail elsewhere. It is stories like this that will separate 'the wheat from the chaff' when it comes to the Festool dealer network. Which dealer do you wish to be, the wheat or the chaff?

Presuming all margins being equal in terms of percents, would there not still be an increase in real profit by taking an otherwise re-salable rail back, replacing the strip then selling the customer the longer and hence more expensive rail he truly wants? In doing so a dealer has created a happy and infinitely more likely to return customer, as opposed to the long list of unhappy customers that have done business with one of the two chains that we have numerous threads bad-mouthing.  [2cents]

 

[peter halle]

My guess is that one piece of the puzzle as to why and how certain situations are handled is dictated by Festool / dealer agreements which we have seen to be non discussable on the internet - IMHO rightly so.  For instance if I buy a 75" rail and use it and decide that I then want a longer one, if the dealer takes it back - what is he allowed to do with it?

The situation of non used products - accessories or consumables - purchased in combination with a tool is one area that frankly needs to be modernized in writing.  An example:  When I purchased my RO150 years ago I also placed an order for 2 sandpaper systainers and tons of paper.  The order for the systainers and paper was greater in cost than the tool.

Now, honestly, if I had decided to return the tool within 30 days and was told by the dealer that the unopened boxes and undamaged systainers were mine to keep and dispose of in some manner, then I suppose I would have looked at the warranty / return policy and would have quietly nodded my head, gotten a piece of my wife's mind, and moved on - to another brand.

One of the beautiful parts of the Festool line is the sheer number of accessories and how they complete the tools.  Unless modernization of the policy is put into place there can exist a hesitancy to purchase the accessories at the time of purchase which could result in less satisfaction with the tool during the 30 day policy and subsequently more returns.  All counterproductive.

Personally I think - especially in the age of internet shopping - that ALL dealers should have a section clarifying exactly how Festool returns are handled in plain detailed language.

Peter

 

[sancho57]

Only comment I have about festools guaranty and the way they treat their customers is at the demo yesterday and guy came in talking about his outlet on his CT went out and he had to order another one. The festool rep went outto his van , brought him a new one,gave it to him and  walked him through the installation process.

How can ya beat that.