Festool in-general

[Crawfish]

I had posted a question on another guys post about his first big festool purchase. He had a festool track saw and CT after those 2 tools he liked them so much he bought about every festool there is. I didn't get that many responses I think because I asked the question on his post. So I'm going to ask the same thing again on my own post.

I am new to the fog and also just a hobbiest but have a few questions for you. I have been looking at getting a track saw for over a year now but just can't seem to overcome the price on them! I saw on the post you had a ts55 and CT 36 were they really that good to justify dropping the bank and buying just about every festool product? I also saw where you said you are professional cabinet man what about the conventional tools like table saw shaper etc?

 

[BobKovacs]

Some guys go completely overboard and buy every Festool product whether they need it or not. They're more like collectors who like to swoon over their purchases. 

The track saw setup is great if you do a lot of cabinet work that requires breaking down sheet goods.  Its nice to not need to feed sheets through a table saw, and also nice to have almost all of the dust collected.  The price is only justified if you're going to get the use out of them, just like every tool.  I know guys who have shops full of equipment (both Festool and cove thionyl) that they never use, and I know guys that produce very nice work without elaborate shops and tons of equipment.  Only you can decide if this stuff is "worth it". 

 

[tjbnwi]

The track saw is a game changer------if you have a use for it.

As Bob mentioned, buy what you need and will use. Anything else is just a dust collector, and not in a good way.

Tom

 

[rljatl]

My 2 cents - If you go in with high expectations, you will be disappointed.  If you go in with no expectations, you will be very pleased.  At least that's how it worked out for me.

Different people have different experiences, too.  I love my MTF/3 and with an after market 18" triangle and qwas dogs to square the fence and rail and Precision parallel guides, I find it to be amazingly accurate.  However, some people have been disappointed with the accuracy of their MFT.  I think they just have not quite figured it out yet.  There is a learning curve.

 

[K119Phil]

Hey! [welcome] to the FOG!

I'll sit back and let real users give you feedback from their experiences on the value of Festool. 

One small piece if you're interested in savings is to get a smaller vacuum.  The CT26 works just as fine, and frankly many guys get away with running a CT Mini or Midi as well.  Festool revamped their vac lineup in 2012, upgrading all the motors across the board; so yup, all produce a very healthy 137CFM! 

It just really boils down to what type of work you do, and figuring out a right setup for you to make your money back in a more efficient manner.

Again, very very welcome to the FOG!  I'm quite certain you'll enjoy your stay

 

[ccarrolladams]

I had posted a question on another guys post about his first big festool purchase. He had a festool track saw and CT after those 2 tools he liked them so much he bought about every festool there is. I didn't get that many responses I think because I asked the question on his post. So I'm going to ask the same thing again on my own post.

I am new to the fog and also just a hobbiest but have a few questions for you. I have been looking at getting a track saw for over a year now but just can't seem to overcome the price on them! I saw on the post you had a ts55 and CT 36 were they really that good to justify dropping the bank and buying just about every festool product? I also saw where you said you are professional cabinet man what about the conventional tools like table saw shaper etc?

Happy Year, Crawfish and  [welcome] to The FOG!

Considering where you live, what a fitting name. Since I was a child, The Big Easy has been my go-to destination for relaxation.

Selection of all tools needs to be a function of the tasks to be performed.

Although my long career I had other executive jobs, since 1946 I have also built and sold custom cabinets and related products. From 1959 until 1998 I owned a sophisticated and large (12 employee) cabinet making firm in Pasadena, CA. Many of my long time employees were retiring, my primary career needed all my attention and I got an outstanding offer for the land and building. So I sold off all my equipment and closed the business.

Then in early 2006 I was contemplating retirement from the corporate world to concentrate on several businesses I had built up over the years. As word leaked to my former wholesale cabinet clients they asked me to start another shop. So in January 2006 I drove to the new showroom of a long-time pal who had sold me some expensive woodworking machines in the past, including the portable Inca table saw I still own. My cunning plan was to lease an industrial building. That day I was prepared to buy a state-of-the-art European sliding table saw large enough to break-down 4x10' sheets. I figured it would take a couple of months to get delivery, by which time I would have leased the space.

After telling my pal what I had in mind, he took me to his Festool demo room. The TS55 with the then new style guide rails had only been in the USA a few months. I realized I could perform the breakdown in little more floor space than a stack of plywood with the TS55, and I did not need a helper to safely slide full sheets through the saw. The Festool dust extractor eliminated the need for a permanent dust collection system.

Mind you, I did not give up my portable and precise Inca table saw, which I needed to rip solid lumber. Back then I also owned  a miter saw.

By the end of 2006 I owned several Festool sanders, a Trion PS300 jigsaw, a planer and OF1010 and OF2200 routers, in addition to 12 routers of other brands I already owned.

With my Festools I could move from space rented in one shop to a different space as needed.

Late in 2009 I had put together a cadre of master cabinet makers. I bought a huge industrial building in Burbank which needed a new electrical service (480v 3ph 3,000kva) ADA compliant restrooms and a plant DC system. We have all of the expected major machines (CNC pressure beam saw, CNC routers, CNC sliding table saw, shaper, jointer, thickness planer, multi-head molder. Still, we use the track saws for exotic bevels and miters which cannot be done on the beam saw and which take longer on the slider saw.

There are other brands of plunging track saws available, but in my experience none out-perform Festool. Sure, my firm makes money using our tools, but all of us need satisfaction from woodworking. We appreciate the way Festools feel in our hands during use. We are confident the CNC beam saw makes very good cuts to exact dimensions time after time. That saw does so very rapidly, but to a woodworker there is less satisfaction than pushing a TS55  through sheet material. With the CNC machines and the Festools we have the best of both worlds.

Many of my friends are DIY. They can well afford Festools and they use those because they enjoy them.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

On the whole I would say there products are good, but I certainly wouldn't go out and buy every single 1 but there is alternatives some slightly better and some slightly not as good it comes down to what's right for you and what you can justify buying it's best to buy the festool you feel you will get the most use out of then you don't feel it's a waste the service from festool is proper one of there strongest points and a main reason a lot of people buy them, but other companies tools I have had in the past like hilti there service to me never had a problem or complaint but there tools have come down in price and I feel not as good also I've had to deal with mafell indirectly, but they tend to communicate through there distributers which a lot of people don't like. I had to send my kss400  back to get fixed as I stupidly overloaded it I phoned up the shop I bought it from and the distributers up and they sent loan saw up to use whilst mine got sent to germany to get fixed but for a hoppist there far to expensive unless you're using every day. What sort of things do you make

 

[peter halle]

For years before I received my TS-55 I did what so many others did who had to make long straight cuts using a circular saw - I bought various straight edges and clamped them to my wood and slid the circular saw alongside it to make the cuts.  I always had to remember to make the adjustment for the offset of the blade to the straightedge and compensate.  Usually the measurement ended up being between the 1/16 marks on my tape.  I didn't give a rat's butt about dust collection and used a broom and a dust pan.  I certainly screwed up a few things when I messed up the math and after looking at the tissues at the end of the day I could measure how productive I had been.

With the TS-55 and its guiderails I eliminated the math, many of the screwups, and my nose was cleaner all day.  Now productivity was measured by what got done on the job.  I have added other tools since then as needed - some years more and some years less - depending on my needs.  Although owning one of each is a lifelong dream, owning what I need and learning to use them to their potential is far more realistic and rewarding.

A TS-55 saw and a dust extractor will be a game changer - why else would so many other manufacturers jump on the bandwagon as soon as certain patents expired?

The nice thing that if you do decide to give it a try you will have the opportunity to try it the way you figure you will need to use it, we have a ton of guys and gals here who started out just like you, and if you are not convinced within the return period you can return it.

Peter

 

[Birdhunter]

There are a lot more hobby woodworkers than professionals. We largely support companies like Festool.

Most of the hobby woodworkers I know discover Festool, buy one or two tools, then get really hooked on the products. I did.

I started with the Domino 500 and the TS55 system and two MFT units. The engineering and quality were impressive and fully justified the price (in my mind). Most of my multitude of Festool products replaced tools that I bought over the past 20 years and represented outdated technology (mostly dust collection).

I have not bought every Festool product, but a lot more than I would have imagined I would have in the beginning. I use them all. I totally enjoy using them and the people I give my "creations" to enjoy them.

I think the caution is that some of the Festool products are optimized for job site work. I think the CMS is a perfect example. If you operate out of a fixed shop, there may be better options than a Festool product.

 

[Kev]

I think there's two distinct types of woodworking hobbyists ... those that do work themselves to save money and those that do it for the the enjoyment. It's possible to be both if you're reasonably talented [smile]

... I'm in the group that does it for enjoyment.

Festool's cutting, routing, planing and sanding tools make it possible to be a woodworker with very little mess and cleanup. My level of OCD truly values this. At the other end of the spectrum there'll be people that are happy to cut, trim and shape with a blunt axe.

Bottom line, there's an equation you could apply to justify the purchase of Festool products, but it's different for everyone. You'll see people being highly critical of "Festool collectors" ... they're simply judging people by their own values. I know a guy that has 15 kayaks - if it makes him happy I'm very pleased for him!

In the US you get to buy a Festool and try it for 30 days - if you don't like it or if you don't believe it's worth the additional cost over other brands, you can return it and get your money back.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

The "Is it worth the price?" question is really up to the individual, but I'll tell you how I answered it.   Woodworking is my hobby because I enjoy it.  From there, I decided that I should buy tools that give me satisfaction every time I use them.  For me that means they have to be precise, they shouldn't need a lot of maintenance, they should hold their settings for a good long time, and they should last.

I enjoy making stuff - I don't enjoy making mistakes or do-overs.  If the tool is not accurate or has to be recalibrated every few cuts, I have no patience for that.

I don't enjoy cleaning up after a project, so good dust collection is important to me.

A few years ago, I had to have sinus surgery for a condition that was probably caused by wood dust - I really didn't enjoy that, so dust collection is important to me.

The first tool I bought was the TS55 and a CT22, thought they were overpriced until I used them.  Same for the Domino and the Kapex.   But once they showed me what they could do, I forgot what I paid for them.    But I still hold a grudge against that $5 piece of junk from Harbor Freight that made me waste a weekend last year.

That doesn't mean that I buy everything that Festool comes out with or even that every Festool I have bought has been a winner for me.  When I don't need a tool or find myself using a different one instead, I sell the dust collecting tool.  One more great thing about Festool is that it has great resale value.

 

[MrToolJunkie]

Lots of good responses here.  I am just a hobbyist like so many others and I am fortunate enough to have a good collection of Festools, as well as other machinery.  I think that rather than look at cost, you need to look at the value a tool provides.  Sometimes things cost more initially, but all the little things add up and provide value, thereby reducing the overall cost of the tool.  The value can be things outside of the tools "cost" -- time saved from working more efficiently, satisfaction and reduced frustration, less rework because the tool is accurate or allows you to make accurate cuts, less clean-up due to better dust collection, better safety features, healthier, better ergonomics, longer lasting (sandpaper or tooling, for example), customer service, innovation, etc...  

I agree that some folks like to acquire everything and let's face it, for many it is fun to buy tools -- having the best of something can also provide someone satisfaction and "value" to them.  Others are different.  Each person has to decide -- ultimately Festool is not for everyone.  Do I think it is one of the best tool companies around with a range of offerings and accessories that enhance a tool's value?  Absolutely.  Each person's mileage is going to be different.  I think Peter mentioned it but it is worth repeating, use the 30 day return policy to test drive one of the tools yourself to see if it is worth it and provides value.  If it does, then the price of the tool becomes less of a factor and will be long forgotten after you have it.

Good luck,

Scot

Edit: fixed typo

 

[Scott B.]

I am just a hobbiest...

Finally! I am going to say something about this finally.

I have seen this phrase a lot here on the FOG this year: "just" a hobbyist...like somehow that's an inferior status. There is much talent among the hobbyists here on the FOG. Likely more than in the general population.

While I am a pro finisher, I too am "just" a hobbyist and total DIY in woodworking and home remodeling projects. Most of the hobbyists here blow me away, and I learn bunches from them.

In the painting/finishing part of my life, I also run into homeowners/hobbyists/DIY-ers who do nicer paint and finish work than many alleged professionals I've known.

I think Peter put it well in his post above. It doesn't really matter if you are a professional or not. Sure, pros often prefer the most accurate and reliable tools they can get. They also often buy the cheapest they can get. Personally, I think its great when any person makes the choice to work with clean, safe and efficient tools. In fact, I think it is especially important for the hobbyist because they don't log as many hours on the tools, so the safer and more user friendly the system, the better.

I get emails through my website about this kind of stuff.

For instance:

"Hey Scott, I was in the paint store. One can of paint costs $60, the next costs $30. Is one really twice as good as the other?"

Same regarding tools. Paint brushes, sprayers, sanders, vacuums, accessories, etc.

And it is a great question. There are all kinds of answers to it. Everyone pretty much has to answer it for themselves.

 

[nclemmons]

Welcome Crawfish.  I'm sure you'll find a lot of great people and inspired work here.

I'd start with what you want to do to determine if Festool is 'worth it.'  The track saw is great for sheet goods, but I personally still prefer a table saw if all I was cutting was hardwoods.  If your project list has a lot of cabinets, the TS-55 and vac are outstanding.  If you have limited space, I think they will serve you well.  If you want to minimize cleanup and work more safely with rip and cross cuts, they're great, particularly when paired with the MFT table on the cross cuts. 

I have a tablesaw, jointer/planer, bandsaw, thickness sander, drill press, and a host of Festools.  Probably overkill for hobbyists, but they have all served me well.  I've upgraded tools in time, and always look to Festool first.  Why?  Well, this forum, the performance of the tool, the system approach, and safer operation all are reasons why.  Yes they are expensive, but I think they're worth it if you have desire pride and accuracy in your work and health in your work environment.

Look forward to hearing more from you.  I went to school in NOLA and it's a great time and town.  Gumbo recipes are as useful as a furniture build!

neil

 

[Stephen B]

[size=10pt]
+1 to majority of points made above.

I am an owner builder and hobbyist,  I find Festool generally improves my efficiency, work quality and 'enjoyment'. However I do not always buy Festoool, eg drills, when I cannot see a cost vs feature/quality advantage over say Makita and Metabo. For example; in the past twelve months I have purchased four Festool items and two Makita.

As for a track saw, 'a picture tells a thousand words'.

 

[peter halle]

Oh, I'll add another aspect that isn't oftenly talked about - using a Festool router on the rail.  Very few routers can be used this way, there are aftermarket ways and router tables, but depending on what you are doing this part of the "system" can produce better and quicker results.

The first Festool is the ice breaker.  The second - if it fits a want or need - works towards the system approach and then the initial expense is diluted amongst the system.

Peter

 

[tbellemare]

I sell Festool and many other brands. The two brands I prefer most are Festool and Stabila. I really like Festool tools for their dust extraction and overall quality. I really like Stabila for their accuracy and overall quality.

I am in the beginning/middle of updating/remodeling our house. I am doing it a piece at a time so that we can live here comfortably during the process. The past few days, I have been working on a skylight opening in our kitchen. The opening in the ceiling is about 5' x 5.5' and goes up at angles to a skylight that is about 2' x 4'.

The skylight was installed wrong by the previous homeowner's contractor. It subsequently leaked and I got some roofers to pull it and install it correctly while replacing the shingles and some other leaky spots' decking. Anyway, it no longer leaks but the damage was done...

So I'm taking it down to the sheet rock using Planex and RO 90 so that I can determine the extent of the water damage. I spent an hour or so each of 3 evenings doing it, cleaning up, and getting tools out of the way. Last night, while using the RO 90 around the edges, I plugged its dust extraction port somehow. (I assume with joint tape???) I was on top of a 14' step ladder and it took me a little while (couple of seconds) to realize what was going on. While I was coming out of my amazed daze, it spewed fine, white dust into a severe cloud that settled on everything all over the kitchen and a little through a pass-through bar opening into the living room.

At that moment, and for the next hour or so while cleaning up the mess I made, I realized very vividly why I love Festool products so much. With just about any other sander I have used in the past, that nasty cloud would have been normal.

Tom

 

[Stephen B]

Oh, I'll add another aspect that isn't oftenly talked about - using a Festool router on the rail.  Very few routers can be used this way, there are aftermarket ways and router tables, but depending on what you are doing this part of the "system" can produce better and quicker results.

The first Festool is the ice breaker.  The second - if it fits a want or need - works towards the system approach and then the initial expense is diluted amongst the system.

Peter

[size=10pt]

Yes Peter, you are so right. In fact with some wood species that splinter easily, for a rebate (rabbet) I make  a cut with the tracksaw, leave the rail in place and follow with the router attached to its guide rail accessory.

Festool efficiency!

 

[stvrowe]

In a nutshell, the OP appears to be asking the question "is Festool really worth the price?"  I have been woodworking and buying tools and machinery for over 34 years.  It would scare me to add up the amount of money I have squandered away or wasted because I "cheaped out" or "skimped" on a purchase because of price alone.  Don't get me wrong, I love to save a buck just as much as the next guy but, many years ago I learned the saying that the bitterness of poor quality remains long past the sweetness of a low price. 

Late in the last millenium, I started replacing many of the tools and machinery from my past mistakes and these upgrades included a number of Festool tools along with a variety of other high end brands.  I have never regretted how much I spent on the upgrades even though it entailed replacing every stationary machine in my shop along with most of my handheld power tools primarily with Festool and Lamello equipment.  My only regret in this process was how poorly some of my first choices worked out and how much money and time I wasted on them.  My advice is to buy the best quality that you can afford and are willing to spend - and only you can determine what is best for you.

Hope this helps.

 

[tbellemare]

Oh, I'll add another aspect that isn't oftenly talked about - using a Festool router on the rail.  Very few routers can be used this way, there are aftermarket ways and router tables, but depending on what you are doing this part of the "system" can produce better and quicker results.

The first Festool is the ice breaker.  The second - if it fits a want or need - works towards the system approach and then the initial expense is diluted amongst the system.

Peter

I just read Peter's post and it reminded me that the systematic approach that Festool takes is really significant. It isn't just a bunch of tools using the same battery.

The fact that the details are all in place makes grouping the tools synergistic.

The details are respected by their designers, like the fact that 900mm is a magic number and so many things all work together - MFT/3's, Kapex on UG, (both upright and folded), CMS - not to mention the extensions to all, that work universally. Then there's the v-groove that came out a few years ago...

My background is in designing super-complex machines and helping others (including LANL, Rocketdyne, Mannesmann, Audi, Ferrari, etc...) become more efficient at the same. These machines impress me, and I'm not easily impressed...

Tom