Festool in the Commercial realm

[justinh]

OK, Picture this... You're the general contractor, property owner, foreman.....  You have several crews working the job site at the same time.  One of the tradesman has these newer different type green tools and is knowledgeable and articulate about why he has them, e.g. precision, dust control (work safety) etc...  You can see his work area and tools are well organized and he efficiently/neatly accomplishes the task at hand.

Who are you going to remember the next time you go to your contact list to get a precision job done?

IMHO it is not just about the tools but the quality of the person who is willing to search out and invest in those tools and the underlying knowledge about how to exploit that superior tool or system.  Put it all together and you have competency and efficiency which is job security.  [big grin]

Since we're using hypotheticals I've got one.

Two carpenters come onto a job. One has a van full of systainers, rails, etc..  The other has a van full of professional tools with an array of jigs, shoot boards, templates, etc. he has made to maximize the accuracy and efficiency of his tools all carried in tools boxes and milk crates.  Both are assigned identical tasks. Both work efficiently. Both clean up after themselves.  The quality of the work of both is excellent.

If I need one or the other again I would call the second one.  Both would likely be capable but I would want the second one for his mind.  He has demonstrated the ability to not only think outside the box but to think about the box.  He has shown that he is a quality person willing to devote his time to maximizing what he has  and has enough underlying knowledge of his craft to make what he needs to execute his job with precision.  He would be asked back for his mind rather than his tools.

I can walk through a job where carpenters are using miters saws from any number of manufactures including Festool.  I cannot tell what saw cut what piece of wood.  I can however frequently tell which carpenter did the job.  My track saw has as many bad cuts in it as my tape measure has incorrect measurements and my pencil has misspelled words.  It is not about the tools it is about the carpenter. I do not judge a carpenter by his tools but by the quality of his work. 

 

[peter halle]

Another hypothetical:

A professional (doctor, lawyer, accountant, insert your own) drives up to a client's house in a nice car.  Client:  " He must be good and successful.  Look at what he drives."

A contractor drives up to a client's house in a new truck.  Client: "He must be expensive and takes advantage of his customers."

A contractor drives up to a client's house in an old pickup that runs perfectly and was paid for years ago.  Client:  "He must not be doing well.  Look at what he drives."

Don't worry about perceptions.  Do quality work and question the guy or gal you see in the mirror every morning.  You will be happier in the long run.

PS:  I have experienced in real life all of the above on more than one occasion.

Peter

 

[Terry S]

Hi Peter good to see you chime in.  Interesting thread. 

Yea we're thinking the same thing, it's not about the "tools" but about the individual who is knowledgeable about their trade and seeks out the most efficient and and best way to accomplish it. 

However IMHO it seems that not enough tradesmen and small shop people are diligent about dust control and general work site cleanness.  I was at a site (visiting not working) last summer where they were doing the outside trim and deck work on a rainy day.  They were ripping Azak and cutting Trex indoors in the semi finished great room with no dust control at all.  White and brown dust everywhere!  I don't think we even begin to know what the long term implications are about contaminating a living environment with ultra fine plastic dust. 

I really believe that a conscientious tradesmen who is knowledgeable about things like job site dust control as well as being proficient will be rewarded with a greater share of the work in the future.  It's the concepts that are important not just the green tools... 

 

[Jason Kehl]

I think Terry's comment is right on the money. In regards to some of the hypothetical situations it is likely the attitude of a tradesman that the customer will notice most as opposed to whether they bought into an efficient system or built it themselves.

I bet most of us take a blended approach anyway. Festool tools work well together but I still prefer the MFTC carts I built (from Tim's plans) over the MFT for site work, I built a short Sysport that sits on top of my CT36 for interior installations and I like my shop built wings with Kreg stops and imperial tapes for the Kapex.

I just finished up an interior railing job and the customer was enamored with the neat and professional tools and system. I found it quite amusing actualy. I built my system for my own profitability and enjoyment, the fact that it impresses some customers is just a bonus.

 

[WildCard]

I think Terry's comment is right on the money. In regards to some of the hypothetical situations it is likely the attitude of a tradesman that the customer will notice most as opposed to whether they bought into an efficient system or built it themselves.

I bet most of us take a blended approach anyway. Festool tools work well together but I still prefer the MFTC carts I built (from Tim's plans) over the MFT for site work, I built a short Sysport that sits on top of my CT36 for interior installations and I like my shop built wings with Kreg stops and imperial tapes for the Kapex.

I just finished up an interior railing job and the customer was enamored with the neat and professional tools and system. I found it quite amusing actualy. I built my system for my own profitability and enjoyment, the fact that it impresses some customers is just a bonus.

That MFTC is amazing, just saw it for the first time recently (here).  need to build one soon before summer.

 

[DB10]

I thought all the sarcastic comments came for free, with every new Festool purchase.
I have a standard answere now for when I hear "Why do you want to spend all that money on tools for? ... My answere is....Because I can.
  No need wasting your time trying to argue or justify with people, if they're only interested in snide comments but if someone shows a genuine interest I'll take the time to explaine.

 

[MaineShop]

I Have always had two sets of tools. A quality Dewalt or Milwaukee 18v setup for the jobsite. And my shop tools which stay in the shop. Over the past few years more and more of the shop tools have been replaced with Festool. But except for cabinet or built in installation, my festools will stay in the shop, not because they aren't up to it, but I use them for precision and have them set up for certain uses. Also around here on 3 or 4 man crews tools can become communal to the job site when your on a big project. Can't be a pre-madonna and make rules about who touches your tools, we are there to get the job done. That being said there is always the new guy that makes a cut with a quick cut with a skill saw and then runs off, leaving the saw in the dirt. That always stings to watch, and he will learn once he has to buy a few because of wear. But it stings less when it is a $120 Milwaukee and not a $400 Festool. And for general carpentry the Milwaukee will preform excellent.

Depends on the crew, depends on the specifics of the job. We don't use our kapex on the job because we have to order blades. Fine to keep a couple in the shop. But a pain when we are on site and we could grab a standard arbor blade when we go to lunch at the local lumber yard. I suppose my real problem there is a lack of a local dealer and not the arbor design but still keeps the saw in the shop most of the time.

I think in the tool world Festool is still catching on and growing, but I think they are here to stay and not just a passing fad.

 

[Laminator]

I  get looks and comments that range from admiration to disgust from folks on commercial jobs.
  Had a guy recently admiring my mini+atf55 cutting plywood on a job.
He thought it was neat until he ask how much it cost and I told him "about a thousand", to which he scoffed and said "Wow,  I can buy several skillsaws and lots of masking tape for less than that".
  I just laugh it off and think to myself, some folks will forever be ignorant while some will wise up.

  One comment I have heard several times (When folks see ct26 with work center on top) is, "That looks like medical equipment" or "Looks like that belongs in a hospital".

 

[charley1968]

Hi all
Not being a pro, i nonetheless encountered attitudes regarding the system:
I was asked by a friend to exchange window sills. When i told him he had to pick me up in his car because i couldn't carry my equipment by hand, he wondered if a jigsaw wasn't all that's needed.
So, he picked me, the MFT, DE, rail and the TS55 and OF1400 up. Took us about 10 minutes to set up shop in his house. Took another 2 hours to cut and rout the new sills.
Afterwards he was impressed by the dust collection but still maintained that a jigsaw might have been sufficient.
I wasn't gonna argue with him, but next time i'll bring even more stuff when he wants a job done.

 

[crazydave789]

when I started with festo 20 odd years ago in the UK they were pretty much unknown unless you read the woodworker magazines, everyone had elu then dewalt after the rebadge or makita and pretty much still do but now they know about it.

I used to get the comments on more money than sense when I was on a lot less probably than they were but my answer was I didn't smoke or drink and girlfriend stayed naked so I didn't have to buy her clothes  [big grin]. I often had the same tools but better cared for as it all went in systainers so didn't get lost or hidden in saw dust.

I stopped fitting 10 years or so and ended up elsewhere but doing couple of jobs a year to keep my eye in and tools exercised, then a after a bike accident shattered my wrist I ended up in a factory indoor construction enviroment building modular accommodation where the stock tools were bosch 18v on the floor and us subbied trades took in our own kit, got no end of insults over the festool drill I was using until I commented that the cdd12 was 18 years old and this was an original battery yet it still had more power than their dewalt or bosch offerings. saying that my just as old atlas copco pep12t (newer batteries) held its own too proving that a good design well built is timeless. a few months in the firm got a dogging for mdf dust so bought a capex and a midi which miffed everyone else off I was the only one allowed to use it (as they assumed I knew how festool stuff worked. fortunately I did and had plenty of fun with it and the scowls - from the joiners, I was a fitter so a different class  [embarassed] )

last year and some of this year I've been back on the tools helping the family firm out and you still get the looks and comments when the grey boxes start coming in. then more looks as you machine up a set of tops using the same grey boxes as a workbench.

the trouble with most UK trades is the festool stuff is expensive, they are too tight, work too dirty and there's a lot of stuff goes missing on sites unless you keep it close. dewalt generally rules because the reps tour the sites with their vans offering good deals on the pile it high sell it cheap mantra. bedroom and kitchen fitters tend to have more sense and think about what they buy. they also have better organised vans.

probably why UK houses are so shoddy.

 

[joiner1970]

probably why UK houses are so shoddy.

Depends what level you work on [emoji3]

High end housing here is very well built not shoddy at all. But the lower end of the market is rubbish

 

[richy3333]

I agree. Single builds with trades that care give a great product. Pile em highs and build em fast often ain't great.

 

[crazydave789]

probably why UK houses are so shoddy.

Depends what level you work on [emoji3]

High end housing here is very well built not shoddy at all. But the lower end of the market is rubbish

the low end is really rubbish but the high end from what I saw last year is not much better just more expensive and better quality stuff usually made off site with specific external trades to fit it. I'd been out of the game for 10 years and was quite shocked last year to see how little has improved. I was working in houses I'd done 20 years before as well as new builds from small contractors up to a 1.8m behemoth that was running 18 months late. none seemed to understand the concept of true, level or plumb. or for that matter clean as you go.

 

[avrs22]

One of the only guys around here that I see on job sites that uses lots of festools is known as not doing quality work to put it politely.
The best ones around here use Dewalt and Bosh. Would they improve the quality of there work if they used all festool?  probably
The tools cant replace experience knowledge and having the need to do quality work.
One of the best woodworker I saw on a job site once came up to me and asked me If I took his dewalt sander? I kind of laughed and said "why would I take that thing? Well he was all insulted about it.
If he would actually take the time and try to use a festool or mirka sander he might see what a difference it does make.
After 17 years I now use ro125, ro90 and Mirka and as much as my wallet took a hit it was a game changer.
But just because someone uses festool doesn't make them better then the ones that don't.