Festool Looking for Feedback on the Domino

[Bob Marino]

Is it true that the Domino doesn't have a straight drilling function?

Michael,

Correct, it is set to make different size oval mortises, not round drill hole.

Bob

 

[tvgordon]

I was wondering if it was possible to make the tenons or do they have to be purchased?  I've made loose tenons before but I wasn't sure if the Festool tenons were compressed like a biscuit.  Tom.

 

[mysterium]

On the "site down under" a number of the users of the Domino are making their own.  However I believe it's not so much as a cost savings, but to match a specific need.  For example, if the tenon is going to show matching the type of wood or used as a contrasting wood.  Or if piece is to be used outdoors.

jim

 

[bill-e]

The dominos are not compressed other than for the fluting and branding but I have to believe that Festool selected Beech as a material because it does expand (I'm assuming even non-compressed) when wet with glue.

I just looked on Bob's web site for domino prices.  Breaking out my trusty calculator the largest dominos go for $0.13 each when bought in a $65 pack and the smallest for $0.035 in the $65 pack.  Those prices seem pretty good to me as a hobbyist but I don't know how that works for a high volume shop.

 

[Bob Marino]

I was wondering if it was possible to make the tenons or do they have to be purchased?  I've made loose tenons before but I wasn't sure if the Festool tenons were compressed like a biscuit.  Tom.

Tom,

Bill is correct. The tenons (dominos) are not compressed - they are solid beech and reasoanbly priced. Festool made a decision to keep the cost of the consumables very affordable. They want customers to use the machine and not be overly concerned about the cost of the tenons.

Bob

 

[bill-e]

Bob, is there any functional purpose for the markings on the dominos?

 

[Bob Marino]

Bob, is there any functional purpose for the markings on the dominos?

Bill.

They add glue surface.

Bob

 

[Les]

I am not the most imaginative wood worker, so I work with what I have. I am interested in doing a variety of furniture and outdoor landscape structure projects (pergolas, decorative gates, etc...) and joinery is one of the things I am least informed about. I use an FMT for M&T for face frames and other projects, but I am curious about example applications for the Domino -- some information about the range of applications would help me to understand if it would be a useful tool for me.

John,

Take a look at these links:

http://bobmarinosbesttools.com/

[url]http://www.mcfeelys.com/festool/product/574258

Both have lots of info. Make sure you page down on both.

Les (near Indy)

 

[John Stevens]

I ask these questions because Lamello sells glue applicators that make it fast and easy to apply glue to a biscuit joint with no squeeze-out:

1.  What's the fastest way to apply glue to the mortises and dominos?

2.  Is it possible to get a strong joint without applying so much glue that it squeezes out?

3.  What sort of glue applicators and other tools (e.g., acid brushes) work best for glue application?

 

[John Stevens]

Here are some more questions:

1.  Are any precautions necessary to prevent the dominos from swelling or shrinking before use?  If so, what are the precautions?

2.  What's the percentage of defective dominos?  I assume not 100% of them in any given box will arrive in the hands of the consumer perfectly sized, perfectly fluted, with no breakage, etc.

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi John,

I find a simple solder brush works best.  These are the throw away black fiber brushes with the tubular steel handles that you can buy as a bundle most anywhere.  Dip the brush, insert into the Domino mortise and twist to line the walls with glue.  None of the Lamello type applicators work very well as they don't fully coat the mortise walls.  My technique is to coat the walls and lightly coat the mating surfaces.  Then coat half of a Domino, insert it, coat the other half and then assemble.  Providing a bit of time for the glue to soak in little before assembly (20 seconds or more) will make sure you have a good glue joint.  If you insert a dry Domino into a just coated mortise wall it is possible for the Domino to scrape the glue off the walls as it is inserted leaving too little glue in the joint.  The Domino cutters (at least mine) are 0.1mm smaller than the diameter marked (about .004") so the fit is quite tight to begin with.  By allowing the glue to soak into the walls for a few seconds insures a molecular level bond, not just a mechanical bond. 

A copule of other observations.  The Dominos are very consistent in size.  I did measure a bunch of them and found not a lot of variation so I have yet to find one that was not useable.  Dominos are solid wood so they do not shrink or swell prior to use, or even after being exposed to the water in the glue like a biscuit will.  Hence, no mushroom like hump if there is too little side wall.  I regularly cut an 8mm Domino inside a 10mm traditional M & T joint when assembling R, S & P components.  The 8mm Domino insures the alignment and greatly strengthens the 10mm long by 10mm wide M & T which is my standard for such assemblies.  The 1mm thick side walls (about .040") with glue on both edges (the inner 8mm edge and the outter 10mm edge) means that the glue will penetrate most of the way through the side wall, providing a very strong bond indeed.  One would be hard pressed to make Dominos that work as well for the price Festool sells them.  The fluting on the sides prevents hydralic lock which one would get with simply rounded over tenon stock.  And, the side stamping traps glue on the tenon while it is sliding into the mortise.  Without those two features on a home made tenon, one would have to cut the tenon quite undersized to work properly and then the joint would not be as strong.  Hope this helps.

Jerry

I ask these questions because Lamello sells glue applicators that make it fast and easy to apply glue to a biscuit joint with no squeeze-out:

1.  What's the fastest way to apply glue to the mortises and dominos?

2.  Is it possible to get a strong joint without applying so much glue that it squeezes out?

3.  What sort of glue applicators and other tools (e.g., acid brushes) work best for glue application?

 

[mysterium]

Jerry,

Your explanation was as usual very well written to convey a good mental image.  However I didn't follow what your where saying in this sentence;

"I regularly cut an 8mm Domino inside a 10mm traditional M & T joint when assembling R, S & P components."

Could you clarify for my thick head this sentence.

Thanks, jim

 

[Hotwheels]

I am not the most imaginative wood worker, so I work with what I have. I am interested in doing a variety of furniture and outdoor landscape structure projects (pergolas, decorative gates, etc...) and joinery is one of the things I am least informed about. I use an FMT for M&T for face frames and other projects, but I am curious about example applications for the Domino -- some information about the range of applications would help me to understand if it would be a useful tool for me.

John,

Take a look at these links:

http://bobmarinosbesttools.com/

[url]http://www.mcfeelys.com/festool/product/574258

Both have lots of info. Make sure you page down on both.

Les (near Indy)

This is a great compliation of information and videos -- thanks Les, this helps!

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi Jim,

The rail and stile components have a 10mm x 10mm slot cut in them to accept a 10mm panel.  Where the rail joins the stile the rail also has a 10mm tongue so it can fit inside the slot as well.  The R & S components are normally 50mm wide by 20mm thick.  By the time you cut a 10mm slot, then the tongue is 10mm long by 40mm wide by 10mm thick so the glue surface in that joint is twice 10 x 40 or 80 sq. MM.  By cutting an 8mm Domino mortise in the end of the 10 x 10 x 40 tongue and in the middle of the 10 x 10 slot you can increase the glue surface area by a bunch.  In addition, the 50mm long domino increases the M & T depth by 5x and, on assembly the edge of the rail will perfectly align with the end of the stile.  So, you can make a very strong R & S assembly very quickly.

Jerry

Jerry,

Your explanation was as usual very well written to convey a good mental image.  However I didn't follow what your where saying in this sentence;

"I regularly cut an 8mm Domino inside a 10mm traditional M & T joint when assembling R, S & P components."

Could you clarify for my thick head this sentence.

Thanks, jim

 

[John Stevens]

More questions inspired by Lamello:

How soon before Festool makes hinges to fit in the Domino mortises?  It would be nice to have a leaf-type hinge like Lamello makes, and also a Soss-type hinge.

How soon before Festool makes a Domino tenon that allows for the joint to be disassembled, like the aluminum KD biscuits?

How soon before Festool makes a Domino tenon from material designed to be used with solid surface countertops?

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Those are awesome ideas, John.  I hope some hardware manufacturer's are reading posts like yours.

 

[mysterium]

Jerry "Thank You" for the followup to my question.

Your explanation gave me a clear mental view. 

My problem was one of terminology & methodology.  Once I understood how you are making the Style & Rails, it became clear.  Using a shaper with a power feeder for decades caused me to be a bit set in my ways.  It's always good to look at & understand how others are approaching similar applications. 

Again "Thank You" for taking the time on the followup post.

jim

 

[HowardH]

Ok.  I'm in.  Will be selling my Leigh FMT soon.  After hearing the comments and watching the demo video, it sure seems to make sense to bring the machine to the wood rather than the other way around.  I like the FMT and it does a great job but I had a project this weekend that begged for the Domino.  Not going to order until the drawings are over with, though.  You never know, I might get lucky... naw...Funny, my wife says the same thing, hmmmmm.... ???

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Last evening I received my issue of Fine Woodworking containing an article evaluating Domino machine.  Although the author credited Domino with being a major innovation that is likely to change the way many work on many projects, the author also asserted that Domino joints will be too weak for use in the joints of a dining table, because the tenons are too small.  I don't understand that author's reasoning, which I think overlooked the fact that multiple Domino joints can be used at each junction of an apron to a leg.  In all dining tables I am familiar with the top extends over the legs as well as the apron members and any intermediate stretchers spanning across the aprons.  Therefore the primary static load (vertically downward) and is supported directly by the legs in combination with the apron members and through their joints to the legs.  Any side load, such as when pushing away from the table, or moving the table, will be concentrated in the joints of the aprons to the legs, but multiple Domino tenons could be used to somewhat distribute that load.  Festool's online demos contain illustrations indicating that a staircase can be quickly made using Domino; that surely requires confidence in the strength of the joints, as does using them to make a chair.  I have used multiple dowels and corner braces for table joints in the past and have never experienced any looseness or failure (some are >30 years old and still in daily use).  I would like to know the opinions/experiences of other more experienced woodworkers and furniture makers than myself regarding the limitations of Domino joints.  Someone has already pointed out that a Domino machine could be used to machine wider mortises to be fitted with shopmade tenons.  The only limitation would be the depth of those mortises.

 

[Jerry Work]

I agree with you David.  It seems to me that more and more of the mag. "reviews" are filled with asserted, but not substantiated, statements such as this one.  Common sense would say a 5mm x 30mm single loose tenon would not come close to being strong enough for a leg to skirt joint on a dining table.  But, my experience with loose tenon joinery cut on my industrial sliding table mortise machine says two or three 10 x 50mm loose tenons per leg to skirt joint are more than strong enough for a dining table.  I commonly use sliding dovetail joints at that point and they have less penetration (but a lot of total surface contact area) and I have never had a call back due to a loose leg to skirt joint.  I am building a small butterfly leaf dining table at the moment and may include it as part of the Domino manual.  That table uses a different leg structure, but the leg to table support joints are all Dominos and I have no question about the strength or durability.

Jerry

Last evening I received my issue of Fine Woodworking containing an article evaluating Domino machine.  Although the author credited Domino with being a major innovation that is likely to change the way many work on many projects, the author also asserted that Domino joints will be too weak for use in the joints of a dining table, because the tenons are too small.  I don't understand that author's reasoning, which I think overlooked the fact that multiple Domino joints can be used at each junction of an apron to a leg.  In all dining tables I am familiar with the top extends over the legs as well as the apron members and any intermediate stretchers spanning across the aprons.  Therefore the primary static load (vertically downward) and is supported directly by the legs in combination with the apron members and through their joints to the legs.  Any side load, such as when pushing away from the table, or moving the table, will be concentrated in the joints of the aprons to the legs, but multiple Domino tenons could be used to somewhat distribute that load.  Festool's online demos contain illustrations indicating that a staircase can be quickly made using Domino; that surely requires confidence in the strength of the joints, as does using them to make a chair.  I have used multiple dowels and corner braces for table joints in the past and have never experienced any looseness or failure (some are >30 years old and still in daily use).  I would like to know the opinions/experiences of other more experienced woodworkers and furniture makers than myself regarding the limitations of Domino joints.  Someone has already pointed out that a Domino machine could be used to machine wider mortises to be fitted with shopmade tenons.  The only limitation would be the depth of those mortises.