Festool Looking for Feedback on the Domino

[T. Michael]

Assertions by professionals are very persuasive and substitute for facts, usually very helpfully.  Sometimes they seem wrong to other professionals, and that's the time for scientific testing.  I'll bet that someone is considering those 'strength of joint to failure' tests again for their materials Phd with Dominos now in the mix.

I did like the FWW author's suggestion that wider Dominos be offered by Festool to fit the wider slots. Of course, we can always make them, and will probably do so til the real thing comes out.

I just visited our local Woodcraft store who got their Domino demo machine this week and cut a few mortises for my sofa table mock up.  Very sweet ride.  The machine seemed a bit bigger than I expected, but it was a breeze to set up, use and change settings on.  Much faster than the Multirouter.  I like that the scale shows the center of the bit; very helpful in reducing the math to figure out the center of a rail.  And, with digital calipers, switchable from inch to metric, again the math becomes easy.  But to make sure, I bought a Fastcap metric tape measure.

Last thing; Jerry, do you have an estimated date for your Domino manual?  I'm really looking forward to it. 

Mike

 

[Dave Ronyak]

When I get my Domino machine (Bob? When?), I am going to try to make arrangements to have some joints tested on an Instron or MTS machine, comparing them to dowel and classic M&T.  Not too long ago, Wood Magazine or Popular Woodworking, or another magazine, I cannot remember which, published the results of comparative testing of a range of butt, half-lap, doweled, and M&T joints, including various widths, depths and thicknesses of the M&T, all relative to standard widths and thicknesses of the stock.  They tested straight out tensile loading, shear loading and bending loading.  The M&T joint was definitely the strongest, and proportions of the M&T made a significant difference, but beyond certain ranges of those proportions, no further gains were realized, because the wood itself was fracturing.  I think they also determined no significant difference between loose tenons and integrally formed tenons.  I'd still like to know what that author of the FWW article expects to load on his dining room table before ?pushing? it around that caused him to conclude that Domino tenon joints wouldn't be adequate.

I am impatiently waiting for Jerry's manual, too.

 

[John Stevens]

When I get my Domino machine, I am going to try to make arrangements to have some joints tested on an Instron or MTS machine, comparing them to dowel and classic M&T.

David, that would be really interesting if you could do some tests like that and share the results here.  Here are a couple links to messages I wrote that compare some of the articles published on this subject in the popular magazines.  By noting the way those articles fall short in the way they report the data, or in the type of data they collected, perhaps your tests will be more useful.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=409396&postcount=37http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=409953&postcount=47

The M&T joint was definitely the strongest, and proportions of the M&T made a significant difference, but beyond certain ranges of those proportions, no further gains were realized, because the wood itself was fracturing.

Yes, which is why I think that it may be counterproductive to use an 8mm or 10mm thick domino in an 18mm thick apron, if maximum strength is a concern.  On the other hand, if adequate strength is all we're after, then a 10mm thick domino may serve quite well, even though the joint would be stronger if a 6mm domino were used.

I'd still like to know what that author of the FWW article expects to load on his dining room table before ?pushing? it around that caused him to conclude that Domino tenon joints wouldn't be adequate.

Same here.  I think that amateur woodworkers are often too concerned with maximum strength, when they would be better off asking how much strength is realistically needed, and then choosing material, dimensions and types of joints accordingly.  I'm not at all concerned about the strength of Domino joints, because I'm confident that they're stronger than biscuit joints, and I'm convinced biscuit joints, done properly, are plenty strong enough for most furniture applications.

Regards,

John

 

[Tinker]

I have never tried, or even inspected in any way, the phenomenon of bisque joinery.  The bisquets just never looked that strong to me and seemed more of an easy and quick way to line of the mating pieces of a joint.  It lookes to me (remember, I have never looked realy close, so I don't know for sure) that the grain of the busqets runs from end to end of the buisquet.  It looks like there would be no strength added.  Even if the grain runs the other way, from all reports I have read, the joint is far short on strength than a M&T or even a couple of dowels.  I could see no advantage to investing in a BJ.  Recently, I have started doing loose tennons with good success, making my own tennons from narrow scraps. I mill a 2 or 3 foot tennon and just cut off to whatever length I need on the BS.  And now, along comes the Domino.  Now, that looks like a real winner to me.  Only problem I see for me is: What will I do with all of those scraps I have been making my tennons out of.  Oh well, Ill figure something.  I will have to, as I am sure I will win one week in the Raffle.javascript:void(0);
Tinker

 

[Jerry Work]

I hope to have it to Festool by the end of March.  From there it is internal review time before acceptance and release.

Jerry

Assertions by professionals are very persuasive and substitute for facts, usually very helpfully.  Sometimes they seem wrong to other professionals, and that's the time for scientific testing.  I'll bet that someone is considering those 'strength of joint to failure' tests again for their materials Phd with Dominos now in the mix.

I did like the FWW author's suggestion that wider Dominos be offered by Festool to fit the wider slots. Of course, we can always make them, and will probably do so til the real thing comes out.

I just visited our local Woodcraft store who got their Domino demo machine this week and cut a few mortises for my sofa table mock up.  Very sweet ride.  The machine seemed a bit bigger than I expected, but it was a breeze to set up, use and change settings on.  Much faster than the Multirouter.  I like that the scale shows the center of the bit; very helpful in reducing the math to figure out the center of a rail.  And, with digital calipers, switchable from inch to metric, again the math becomes easy.  But to make sure, I bought a Fastcap metric tape measure.

Last thing; Jerry, do you have an estimated date for your Domino manual?   I'm really looking forward to it. 

Mike

 

[T. Michael]

Thanks Jerry,

Would it be useful to you to have any informal review done by an outsider, (ahem) like me?  I'd be glad to help.

Best, Mike Ward

 

[John Stevens]

I have never tried, or even inspected in any way, the phenomenon of bisque joinery.  The bisquets just never looked that strong to me....

Yes, most people never get past that stage.  IMO, the attraction of the Domino is not that it can make stronger joints, because if you choose materials and thicknesses with the idea that you'll be joining with biscuits, then biscuits will give more than adequate strength for indoor furniture.  For me the attraction of the Domino is that its positioning mechanisms allow it to join parts even faster than a biscuit joiner.  And even so, depending on the dimensions of the parts and the directions in which forces will be applied, biscuits will work better than dominos in certain joints, so I have no plans to get rid of my Lamello biscuit joiner.

Regards,

John

 

[Dave Ronyak]

When I get my Domino machine, I am going to try to make arrangements to have some joints tested on an Instron or MTS machine, comparing them to dowel and classic M&T.

David, that would be really interesting if you could do some tests like that and share the results here.  Here are a couple links to messages I wrote that compare some of the articles published on this subject in the popular magazines.  By noting the way those articles fall short in the way they report the data, or in the type of data they collected, perhaps your tests will be more useful.

Regards,

John

John et al.,

The article I was thinking of appeared in the November 2006 issue of Wood Magazine begining at Page 58.  They ran the tests using Iowa State U's Structural Materials Testing Facility, using 3/4" x 2" red oak for most joints and 3/4" x 3" for those with the widest teons tested.  WM stated that a free video of the joints breaking is posted at woodmagazine.com/jointtest.  I have not visited that site.  (I am PC challenged - spent most of my after hours time this week trying to get my home PC running again after Norton antivirus and Microsoft updates!  Maybe I or someone could send the author some Domino joint samples using the same.  At the end of the article anyone interested in having their favorite joint tested was invited to contact bob.wilson@meridith.com.  A but joint with 2 dowels is stronger than a butt joint with 2 pocket hole screws and about 2X the strength of a butt joint with a #0 biscuit.  A 1 3/4" wide x 1" long tenon is about 2X the strength of the double dowels.  Shear strength of this M&T was > 1000 pounds and straight pull out was ~2600 pounds.  The author also indicated that smooth mortise sides enable a tighter fit and better strength.  This should translate into quite favorable Domino joint performance.  They also confirmed the rule that the tenon thickness be 1/3 that of the walls of the mortise; otherwise the thin mortise wall fractures.

 

[Tinker]

I had occasion today to be introduced to the Domino.  I have read a couple of reports telling of breaking one of the castings when tightening the stops too tight.  I played around with all
of the wing nut type stops and found that it really takes very little presure to tighten enough that niether the tilt or up and down will move.  just a light touch with my shaky hands, and the was no movement going to happen.  I can see whee the castings are maybe a little thin, but I am also quite certain that the amount of tensioning necessary is no where near enough to do any damage.  Asside from that, all controls are so very accessable and easy to adjust.  I had to lay the machine down and beat a hasty retreat lest I do something foolish with my bank account.
Tinker

 

[bill-e]

I had occasion today to be introduced to the Domino.  I have read a couple of reports telling of breaking one of the castings when tightening the stops too tight.  I played around with all
of the wing nut type stops and found that it really takes very little presure to tighten enough that niether the tilt or up and down will move.  just a light touch with my shaky hands, and the was no movement going to happen.  I can see whee the castings are maybe a little thin, but I am also quite certain that the amount of tensioning necessary is no where near enough to do any damage.  Asside from that, all controls are so very accessable and easy to adjust.  I had to lay the machine down and beat a hasty retreat lest I do something foolish with my bank account.
Tinker

According to Festool there has not been a problem with the tens of thousands of machines sold abroad and Festool USA actually only knows of that one FWW incident.  I thought of an easy fix which is retrofit-able and sent it off to Festool in case it turns out to be a problem here.  I doubt it though. 

 

[John Stevens]

Here's another question...forgive me if it's been asked and answered already, but I can't recall having seen it before.

Is clamping unnecessary to get a good glue bond, as long as the joint does not move while the glue is curing?

Regards,

John

 

[bill-e]

Here's another question...forgive me if it's been asked and answered already, but I can't recall having seen it before.

Is clamping unnecessary to get a good glue bond, as long as the joint does not move while the glue is curing?

Regards,

John

Clamping is no more necessary or unnecessary than clamping an integral M&T.  A clamp will pull that joint tighter than no clamp and the tight joint will dry tight.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
The Domino has now been out for some time, and people have had a chance to use it for a few projects.  There have been several terrific discussions in the forum about the Domino.

I wanted to bring this topic back up so people can have a place to collect their general feedback and comments about the Domino into one place.

So, please jump in with any general suggestions, comments, or criticism that Festool could use regarding the Domino.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[Les]

Here's another question...forgive me if it's been asked and answered already, but I can't recall having seen it before.

Is clamping unnecessary to get a good glue bond, as long as the joint does not move while the glue is curing?

Regards,

John

If the mortise is not square to the face being clamped (fence out of square), then you end up with a "V" between the faces that then have to be clamped to pull the faces flush. When doing this you are in effect bending the dominos. If the fence is out of square, say it's 89*, then the slots are not parallel to the surface being used to register the fence and hence not perpendicular to the face to be glued.

 

[Les]

Has anyone tried to adjust the eccentric bushing for the adjustable locating pin? I found mine so tight I was lucky to move it a half mark between the vertical position and the first mark. I had taken the set screw out of the housing before trying.  :