Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings

[Cheese]

Looks like the bench mount is discontinued though. At least in the USA.

Unfortunately, the bench mount has been MIA for at least the last 5 years world wide. [sad]

I was fortunate enough to source a NOS unit from Uncle Bob about 3-4 years ago.

 

[Chainring]

I was able to score one, new in box, from a member here just last (2022) year. Someone else had posted up their HL 850 on the classifieds and it had the SE HL included.

 

[Cheese]

I was able to score one, new in box, from a member here just last (2022) year. Someone else had posted up their HL 850 on the classifieds and it had the SE HL included.

Just curious, did you also receive the circular white depth cutting ring with it?

 

[Chainring]

Yep, the white ring is in the box. It was new, as in, the plastic strapping was still on the box.

 

[Cheese]

Yep, the white ring is in the box. It was new, as in, the plastic strapping was still on the box.

Excellent, as that part is no longer available as a spare part from Festool and that ring is pretty important if you plan to use the bench mount.

 

[rocky100370]

It would be nice if they made an AC/DC adapter battery like Metabo does. That way when your batteries are charging you plug this on your tool and into the outlet and away you go. No downtime.

 

[simonh]

I feel like it's a small company looking for direction at the moment. 

Years ago, when Dewalt bought Elu, they had band saws, planer thicknessers, flip-over saws, and routers. The stuff woodworkers wanted. Then they saw the future was contractors, and a lot of that stuff just got dated without any updates to the lineup. And, then, they went big down the battery lineup. I'm always amazed watching YouTube some of the latest battery things they come up with.

It was around this time I found Festool. They still had a lot of products aimed at woodworkers and lots of unique stuff. Think Domino Conturo, VacSys, CMS.  It feels more recently like there's a bit of a change to go get some of the battery market. We've seen a number of low-selling products dumped. I can't blame them, they've got a business to run and to make money.

 

[mrboult]

I think this point was more relevant 4+ years ago when Festool’s 18v line up lacked: impact driver, grinder, oscillator, and not long before that even a circular saw. . . These days i don’t really agree that there are any glaring omissions.

I understand the desire to have less battery platforms, and there was a brief point several years back when i was first investing in the festool cordless range that i was wishing the same thing. But ultimately i think owning 2 battery platforms is very manageable. So if one invests in either makita or milwaukee as well as festool then all bases are surely covered.

Personally i find my T-18, my PSBC and my HKC so vastly superior to anything else i have tried that i am more than happy to run the festool platform alongside another brand.

And honestly, i dont need to spend festool prices on my grinder, recip-saw, tyre inflator etc. .

To each their own, but i wouldn’t want Festool to stretch themselves as a company offering more generic tools on the battery platform.

 

[surfjungle]

...
    Planer, probably just not a big enough market to produce one that would need to compete. Especially considering that the corded models (which are great) were discontinued.
...

Agree on most. Though the planers were not discontinued. Both the 65 and 85 are on the 2023 European catalogs. Not sure how in US.

But i agree on the point - there is a reason the HL85, elbeit being THE planer to get - is going 30+ yers now without chnage. It is simply not selling enough to justify new R&D. It is expensive and just too much for a hobby user while the pros usually have a jointer to go along in the shop so do not -require- it either all that much.

As for asking FT for a "complete range of cordless" - it is absurd. Festool's business model is specifically NOT to be a one-stop shop. They just do not make me-too junk tools only to "have the tool range" like all the giants do. Part of this is that FT makes their own tools. They do not ODM it to the Chinese. Nor the Taiwanese.

Asking for such is misunderstanding the FT business model. The same way one cannot buy a Mercedes S class as a station wagon one cannot by a recip by Festool. Just the way it is.

You misunderstand me. I'm not asking for a Milwaukee or Makita range where they have a cordless tool to do everything from unblocking a drain to inflating a football. I'm just looking for some basic items like a recip saw. That's not a big ask. Not at all. Asking for a full range is absurd - I agree but again, that's not what I posted originally. Festool can have any business model it wants but not covering the basics hurts their value proposition to some or more consumers and that is a just and fair critique for me to raise. While that may be an acceptable risk to Festool, it doesn't mean I won't constructively raise this here it hoping that some day, they'll add it in along with a few other basics. I can but dream - first world problems, right?  [tongue]

I agree that Festool don't contract out to cheap firms (that's a risk they're rightfully not willing to take) but disagree that Festool design / make all their own tools. Their OSC looks suspiciously like a Fein supercut a la 2017 - I'd be willing to be money on it. I've heard rumours that Fein may have had a hand in their angle grinder too. So, it's not like Festool couldn't contract out something to Metabo for a recip saw given, from my perspective, the precedent has been set. It's nice to see that they more than likely went to Fein for the OSC, given they invented it and still have probably the best implementation of it. Why I went with Festool over Fein was their system and integration. Fein are sorely lacking there.

+1 on your jointer observation. I did hear that the HL 850 mount was discontinued just not the tool itself. It's interesting that both it and the Mafell are so old yet haven't changed. I do hope that's because there's nothing worth changing.

 

[surfjungle]

I think this point was more relevant 4+ years ago when Festool’s 18v line up lacked: impact driver, grinder, oscillator, and not long before that even a circular saw. . . These days i don’t really agree that there are any glaring omissions.

I understand the desire to have less battery platforms, and there was a brief point several years back when i was first investing in the festool cordless range that i was wishing the same thing. But ultimately i think owning 2 battery platforms is very manageable. So if one invests in either makita or milwaukee as well as festool then all bases are surely covered.

Personally i find my T-18, my PSBC and my HKC so vastly superior to anything else i have tried that i am more than happy to run the festool platform alongside another brand.

And honestly, i don’t need to spend festool prices on my grinder, recip-saw, tyre inflator etc. .

To each their own, but i wouldn’t want Festool to stretch themselves as a company offering more generic tools on the battery platform.

I largely agree and am fine with two platforms. I just like Festool, especially their system integration ideology and would prefer if they had a few more of what I would consider basics (which are not many) 

 

[six-point socket II]

What is your recipro saw is someone else's 1/2" drive impact wrench and another one's grease gun. See where this is going?

If you need a large selection of basic tools running on a single battery platform there are options out there for that. Even at least two combining niche/ speciality tools from different manufacturers and their own main/basic tool selection running on the same battery platform.

No one (here) knows what tools Festool has in the making/ are going to be released sometime in future or if maybe they are even on the verge of joining one of those battery sharing alliances. Still, in my opinion it makes absolutely no sense for Festool to widen the range of basic/general tools just so they are available within the Festool battery platform.

Since you mentioned Sauter and it being a German shop, if it's solely about storage/ stringent use of Systainer for a variety of basic/general corded/cordless tools, take a look at the offerings from BTI.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[surfjungle]

What is your recipro saw is someone else's 1/2" drive impact wrench and another one's grease gun. See where this is going?

If you need a large selection of basic tools running on a single battery platform there are options out there for that. Even at least two combining niche/ speciality tools from different manufacturers and their own main/basic tool selection running on the same battery platform.

No one (here) knows what tools Festool has in the making/ are going to be released sometime in future or if maybe they are even on the verge of joining one of those battery sharing alliances. Still, in my opinion it makes absolutely no sense for Festool to widen the range of basic/general tools just so they are available within the Festool battery platform.

Since you mentioned Sauter and it being a German shop, if it's solely about storage/ stringent use of Systainer for a variety of basic/general corded/cordless tools, take a look at the offerings from BTI.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Thanks Six. What's BTI? Yes, the storage is very useful as are the systems with MFT and dust collection. I do see where it's going but just putting my devils advocate hat on, Festool released an oscillator and angle grinder which could easily be described as tools that fall outside the pale when it comes to Festool's core competencies but common, popular, and somewhat basic tools. I also think we can largely agree on the basics. Is a drill-driver a basic? Yes. Do Festool support it? Yes. Is it part of their core competency? Yes. Is an Oscillator a basic? Maybe. Do Festool support it? Yes. Is it part of their core competency. I doubt it because it's probably a Fein Supercut in Festool's clothing. I'm happy with my Festool purchases and will hopefully get a few more this year including the angle grinder and perhaps their TPC 18/4. I wouldn't want Festool to compromise their quality by box ticking but then again, I bet that if they wanted to expand their lineup a little and outside their core competency, they'd pick a trusted manufacturer to support them white labelling. For what it's worth, Sautershop is really good and the prices are quite fair.

 

[six-point socket II]

Festool drill/drivers excel through Centrotec & Centrotec consumables which to this day are ahead of competitors offerings.

Festool oscillating tool excels through various add-ons and is ahead of competitors offerings. Is it a Fein at heart? You bet. Festool add-ons can be mounted on the Fein devices.

Festool angle grinder/ diamond cutting systems are ahead of competitors offerings through functionality.

That is what makes Festool, Festool. There is no need for them to bring a tool just because they can, without it being a true Festool tool.

BTI:https://www.bti.de/shop-de/

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[xedos]

So it is hard for them to put out too many tools, and they have to make choices about their core offerings.

Is it ?    Small or not, they somehow seem to find the time, resources and will to produce softshell jackets, hats, hoodies , and pencils.

Are any of those made by festool or even have any of the "we make it better" DNA in them ?  Nope.  So this notion that there is no need for them to bring a tool (product) just because they can, without it being a true Festool tool doesn't seem true.  Ditto with their KAL lite and Radio.  Nothing particularly special about them, but at least they run on the standard battery.  Unlike their 12v offering.  And lots o energy seems to be spent ordering up Wera stuff in custom colors to put in an expensive shipping box /carrying case.  They must sell the heck outa those  [unsure]

I think this point was more relevant 4+ years ago when Festool’s 18v line up lacked: impact driver, grinder, oscillator, and not long before that even a circular saw. . . These days i don’t really agree that there are any glaring omissions

I think the point is still quite valid.  Festool's battery powered lineup was very slow to leave the dock a few decades ago and their unwillingness to embrace / recognize / accept that battery pwr was the future, especially LiIon and 18v +,  has cost them to this day.  Their 12v sub compact program practically sank before it left the dock and is still taking on water.

Their 12v drills are still not EC / brushless and their Ah ratings for batteries lags behind the competition.  So much for the "festool touch" huh ?  I won't even get into the lack of other tools those drill batteries fit.

Clearly they can,  and do partner with firms to come up with tools they can't produce in house.  The Vecturo was mentioned already , but they also collaborated with others for their early routers and vacuums as well.  Plus, Daddy has deep pockets as evidenced by the recent acquisitions of SawStop and Shaper Origin - so capital doesn't seem to be an issue either.  And their recent liaison with BOTT benefits the core Festool carpenter, tradesman, or hobbyist user how exactly ???  Because the addition of side mount sliding mounting arrangement is such an improvement even leaving increased cost out of the equation ?  I think most users will not care if they're even aware.  Clearly, there is precedent for them to use outside help to broaden their offerings. Saying they can't do this or that because they are small or family owned just doesn't make sense.

I say just call it what it is and stop apologizing, deflecting, and making excuses for the short comings,  : It's a niche tool co. that'll never have broad offerings and rarely market leading product spex. Will they have some gems and innovations from time to time? Sure, they proven so.  But even that seems to be on the wane. 

 

[luvmytoolz]

I have to disagree with most of the points immediately above. Festool has innovated many offerings which other companies have tried to imitate over the years. They also make a known consistently good level of quality that despite occasional issues is far and away better than most companies in the industry.

They also design as standard into almost everything they produce a level of ergonomics and usability many other companies don't come close to matching. Plus for those who need to scale down at some point, because of all the factors above the resale value of Festool tools must surely be the best around?

So far as "finding time to make marketing items", this statement is a bit absurd I'm sorry to say. Having the marketing dept come up with pencils is the very least time consuming thing a company can do.

I would far prefer to have a smaller range of tools of very high quality, good ergonomics, fantastic usability and performance, and high resale value, than a shed full of DeWalts, Makitas, etc. When I started hanging doors decades ago, I couldn't have done it without the very first tracksaw Festool released. Likewise I would struggle to do joinery in an efficient and accurate manner without the speed and flexibility of the Dominos, the routers of course are also the very best available on the market.

And I'm sure many cabinet makers would attest to the invaluable nature of the MFK700 which has made trimming so much easier.

My thoughts anyway.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Festool drill/drivers excel through Centrotec & Centrotec consumables which to this day are ahead of competitors offerings.

Festool oscillating tool excels through various add-ons and is ahead of competitors offerings. Is it a Fein at heart? You bet. Festool add-ons can be mounted on the Fein devices.

Festool angle grinder/ diamond cutting systems are ahead of competitors offerings through functionality.

That is what makes Festool, Festool. There is no need for them to bring a tool just because they can, without it being a true Festool tool.

BTI:https://www.bti.de/shop-de/

Kind regards,
Oliver

Agree 100% with these points. A lot of people don't take into account the way everything is a system with Festool, and play nicely together. Plus the very stringent safety and OH&S standards applied, especially with the dangerous dust producing stuff like grinders, etc. I have used a Festool concrete grinder in the past, and because I only rarely need to use it, I own a Makita PC5000 concrete grinder, and I don't have to tell you which one is far away the easier to use tool, and the least harmful dust producing machine!

If I had to use it a reasonable amount frequently however, I'd sell the Makita and get the Festool in a flash! They are streets ahead in every way.

 

[cpw]

I do think the Festool Vecturo adds something with the plunge base and accessories.  I have an older Fein Multimaster (corded), but do prefer the Festool one now.  The HKC is another tool that I find just better than the alternatives.

They are just never going to have the range of tools.  I've decided to use Flexvolt for my second line of batteries; which provides the drills, recip saw, and also a bunch of others that I use (lights, yard tools like chainsaw, blower, pruners, fans, etc.).  I used to have primarily ONE+ which are decent tools, and sometimes wonder if I should have chosen M12/M18 instead of yellow, but they work well enough and do have enough variety.

I have a couple of tools that are just one-offs though.    The Festool DTSC, which is like another "half battery platform", because it is a different battery, but the same charger.  I also like the Bosch 12V driver; it has the right form factor; I never fell in love with my CXS.

 

[squall_line]

I, for one, am pretty happy that Festool isn't releasing an HK-55-Mark3 - New for 2023! the year after they release the HK-55-Mark2 - New for 2022!

Do they get every tool just right on their first try?  Hardly (see also: TID-18), but I also appreciate that they take the time to try to get it as right as possible and don't waste their R&D budget chasing the next model number for the following year's release with 2 more in-lb of torque than the previous year, or 30 seconds' longer run time on an 8 hour battery.

Same goes for their overall platform breadth.  I would expect some level of dust extraction, blade stabilization, or other refinement from a reciprocating saw with Festool's name on it, whether corded or cordless.  Anything short of "better than what's already out there" would be a waste of their time and resources compared to things like improving their existing lineup.

And even though the NVR switch requirement didn't exactly come out of left field, I feel like it still short-changed some of the update/upgrade plans or at least moved a number of timelines "to the left on the calendar" from what they were originally planning for some tools, and moved other timelines to the right as a result.

 

[Chainring]

Do they get every tool just right on their first try?  Hardly (see also: TID-18), but I also appreciate that they take the time to try to get it as right as possible and don't waste their R&D budget chasing the next model number for the following year's release with 2 more in-lb of torque than the previous year, or 30 seconds' longer run time on an 8 hour battery.

Hey now, what's wrong with the TID 18? It's a very nice impact. I have it and the equivalent DeWALT and while the DeWALT is stronger, it's also loud as hell. It's almost unpleasant driving fasteners with it. I know it's loud, yet every time I sink some long screw or lag bolt, I have to brace myself. With the TID 18, it's, dare I say, kind of pleasant. Super smooth, too.

 

[Mini Me]

I would far prefer to have a smaller range of tools of very high quality, good ergonomics, fantastic usability and performance, and high resale value, than a shed full of DeWalts, Makitas, etc. When I started hanging doors decades ago, I couldn't have done it without the very first tracksaw Festool released.

Most trades require a wider range of tools than the Festool range and they regard their tools as expendable which no hobby WW is ever going to do when they buy a premium brand such as Festool. Also not every trade requires the same tools and the very wide range that Makita etc supply is aimed at each trade requiring a different part of the range.