Festool Replicas

johnsonri

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
390
With these great Festool products and the precision that they afford us, there are some really really nice replicas of Festool products, jigs and accessories that have been built by the membership here.

There are some great MFT-like workstations, extensions, etc.

I was wondering if any of it could be considered patent infringement or anything like that? Or, could it be said that since the membership here is not creating things to sell, but for personal use, all design similarities are OK.

I started thinking about that as I am building two mft extensions for my mft 1080s because my mft 800s have gotten new homes recently. Albeit, my extensions have design differences compared to the official Festool extension, would Festool care?

I have a Stot's dovetail jig, and they have you sign a contract stating that you will not copy or make a replica of the jig to sell or even to give away.

Can a replica or jig cross the line?
 
I think with the MFT it is kind of hard to patent a bunch of holes so unless you copied everything like the rails etc it would be tough to prove a patent.

I mean I have seen work benches with tons of holes lined up I in order long before the MFT. Festool actually just refined an age old idea combining it with the rails.

I think you would have to copy the MFT pretty closely then try to market it before any patent infringement case would be brought.
 
First, I am not an attorney.  Please do not take my comments as legal advice.  Maybe there is a Intellectual Property Attorney in the forum that can weight in with the true legalities.

My understanding is that you can create a "replica" for personal use, without infringing on the intellectual property of others.  It is when you bring the product into the public domain that you run into issues.  That can be either through monetary consideration, barter, or gratis.  

I understand that there are exceptions, like digital media (software, music, and video).  In those cases, the copy is exactly the same as the original.  In most cases, we are not making an exact replica, but a functional equivalent or interpretation.  
 
I am a patent attorney, and some of the previous responses are WRONG! A patent gives one the right to PREVENT others from making, using or selling a product or method. Thus personal use would be "using" and the creation of the infringing product would be "making." Thus NOT just selling is an infringment. I do not know what patents Festool has on their products. Any potential infringment depends onthe scope of their claims.

Having said the foregoing, if you make something for yourself is Festool likely to sue you. It is probably not economically feasible. If you start selling such items then you start to hurt Festools sales and I would expect a cease and desist letter ASAP after they learn of your activities.

Finally, most people think only ideas such as the telephone are patentable. New uses of old items, and combinations of new things can be patentable. Tread carefully!

Doug R
 
Good info Doug ---- I have had some experience with patents --- that is trying to get around them (oil-field related tools), and it is amazing how inclusive a patent can be.  Nasty stuff to read through.  Much effort in these things to be as general in the scope of an item or method while remaining as vague as possible.  You can pull your hair out trying to get around a patented method.

Justin
 
I am a patent attorney, and some of the previous responses are WRONG! A patent gives one the right to PREVENT  others from making, using or selling a product or method. Thus personal use would be "using" and the creation of the infringing product would be "making." Thus NOT just selling is an infringment. I do not know what patents Festool has on their products. Any potential infringment depends onthe scope of their claims.

Having said the foregoing, if you make something for yourself is Festool likely to sue you. It is probably not economically feasible. If you start selling such items then you start to hurt Festools sales and I would expect a cease and desist letter ASAP after they learn of your activities.

Finally, most people think only ideas such as the telephone are patentable. New uses of old items, and combinations of new things can be patentable. Tread carefully!

Doug R

Thank you.  Another testament to the expertise of this forum. 
 
Do you gents really want to know?  I am a USA patent attorney, with >30 years experience.  There is no exemption from infringement for personal use unless it is for pursuit of "philosophical" interests as contrasted with commercial exploitation.  A tinkerer (no reference to FOG's famous W. Tinker intended) who experiments with another's patented invention is exempted from liability, as long as his efforts are merely that -- pursuit of his curiosity or use for education.  Infringement of a patent does not require exact copying, it only requires making, using, selling, offering to sell or importing whatever is the patented subject matter, e.g. a structure such as a table extension having all the elements of that structure as stated in the granted patent claims.  It is those numbered statements at the end of a patent that define what is the patented subject matter, not what is shown in the drawings, and not necessarily what appears in the products of the patent holder.  It may be that some of the embodiments in the drawings are not covered by the granted patent claims, and it may be that a product that doesn't look much at all like the product of the patent holder does infringe.  Yes, this is legalese.  It isn't simple, although a particular invention may be.  Infringement and liability for damages to the patent holder are not exactly the same.  Damages for infringement do not accrue under US law until the accused infringer is notified of the infringement.  In earlier days, that requirement could be met by affixing the patent number(s) on the product or the packaging it came in if the nature of the product made marking the product itself impractical (e.g. a carbon brake disk for an aircraft)  Today, it seems USA courts want a more specific direct notice to be given, one that rises to the level that enables the accused party to file a declaratory judgment action against the patent holder if he so chooses to pull the trigger first.  The cost of enforcing patent rights is usually quite substantial (a "cheap" lawsuit is in the order of $1M cost, most patent fights between corporations cost much more) and can take many years.  The inventor of the interval windshield wiper (Kearns) fought Ford and other automotive companies for many, many years before being paid for his patent [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=4&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=kearns.INNM.&s2=wiper&OS=IN/kearns+AND+wiper&RS=IN/kearns+AND+wiper].  Thus, many minor violations are often not pursued by the patent owner.

Patents are territorial in nature.  A patent in Germany cannot be used to stop infringement in USA and vice versa.  The claims of corresponding patents in USA and Germany are likely to be somewhat different in language and legal scope, as are the laws that govern them.

Copyright and trademarks are separate and distinct categories of intellectual properties, and the legal rules governing each of them are different from those that apply to patents.  Patents have a much shorter life than copyrights and trademarks, 20 years from the date of patent application in most countries including USA.  Copyright lasts longer than the life of the author, hence Elvis' estate is still making a fortune on his recordings.  Trademarks can be renewed and thus last indefinitely if properly used and protected by the owner.  Anyone interested can obtain a lot of information at  thehttp://www.uspto.gov/.  I recommend honoring any contract that you enter.

Dave R.
 
[There is no exemption from infringement for personal use unless it is for pursuit of "philosophical" interests as contrasted with commercial exploitation.]

So Dave that basically means we can continue doing what we are doing, correct?

All the things I have seen  on this forum are not for commercial exploitation. This  makes more sense to me.

If a personal user does copy something and than does NOT  use it commercially then can they use it themselves for no other reason than to see how it works, correct? Which seems to leave it wide open for any of us to make an mft and use and test it ourselves. Like many have been doing with Festools knowledge as long as this forum has been up.

Which would mean "A patent gives one the right ......., using..........." is not based in a real world situation.

It seems the "using" portion of the previous post is incorrect or at the very least wide open for interpretation as any one using it can be testing it to understand how it works.
 
I'm not a lawyer, but i have dealt with patents and copyrights issue quite often.  I think what Dave is saying that they are within their rights to file a claim against you if you are producing work that derives from any of the ideas protected by the patent.  Regardless if it is for your own use or for profit (except for phylisophical purposes).  This could be, for example, building your own MFT (I don't know if this is protected).  However, they are unlikely to pursue this unless you are cutting into their bottom line significantly given the cost (and fall-out) of a lawsuit.

Festool is aware and supportive of this site.  I don't think they will be sueing a FOG member for damages unless someone starts mass producing and selling the John Doe MFT/4, DOOM-I-KNOW, or the PLUSH-SAW.
 
Very great explanations and very enlightening!! The body of knowledge in the FOG never ceases to amaze me. My opinion is that Festool comes out ahead here. Many of the ideas in this forum are 'second to none' when it comes to research and development.

So, everyone have a drink on me...in the name of "philosophical interests"   :)
 
Alright, so how about this grist for the mill. If a unique jig method is published here by an individual but not patented, is it defensible against infringement later? I'm talking between an individual and a company, not one guy copying another, as we all do.
 
One of the fundamental purposes of the US patent system is to encourage invention.  That goal is promoted by giving the patent holder the right to exclude others from exploiting his invention for a limited period of time.  So, if the invention is accepted in the market, the inventor makes money.  If everyone could jump in with copies as soon as they saw the first inventor's invention, that greatly diminishes or destroys the incentive to invest in commercializing it.  Another fundamental purpose is to enable others to make further inventions based on publication of the earlier patented inventions; most patents are issued for improvement inventions.  There aren't many inventions among the more than 7 million US patents granted to date that equal basic inventions such as Pasteur's fermentation process, the gasoline engine (Otto engine), the diesel engine (Diesel) or the automobile (Benz), or the transistor, AC electrical power generation and distribution (Tesla) and later the integrated circuit, and the others in the Inventors Hall of Fame.  The piston driven engine was supposed to have died as turbine engines replaced them, but  more than 50 years later, each week there are more new patents issued on improvements in piston driven gasoline engines.  A good basic invention is a game changer, and usually is followed by many more improvement and ancillary inventions.  Invention of the car created the need for many more products, many of which were and are patented.  Most of Tesla's patented concepts are still in use in most electrical generation and distribution systems of the world.

Under US law, if your (otherwise patentable) invention is described in a printed publication (the internet serves as publication) by you or anyone else  more than a year before filing for USA patent, you are barred from getting a valid patent.  Likewise if you use your invention in commercial activity or offer to sell it more than a year before filling for USA patent, even if it is a process that you practice in secret that cannot be discerned from examination of the product that is sold.  The European countries are even more stringent, there is no one year grace period.  If the invention is available to the public before filing for patent, except under very limited circumstances, whether or not offered for sale, the patent is dead on arrival.

The direct answer Eli's question is NO, for the reason stated above.

If anyone invents a new jig or method he or she wants to seek a patent on, he or she should seek legal counsel from a qualified patent attorney.  Note that  a general attorney is not qualified under US law to opine on whether or not something is patentable or to draft and prosecute a patent application on behalf of a client.  All US patent attorneys are attorneys licensed under the laws of at least one state, hold an additional special license from the US Government after passing an additional exam.  They have to have at least the equivalent of a 4 yr engineering or science degree in order to sit for the exam.  Keep in mind that most patented inventions are not commercially successful; most are never commercially implemented.

I have no insight into the thoughts of Festool's management or legal representatives.  But I hope they see benefits to their business through the many creative ideas that are shared on this forum.  I believe we have demonstrated many times over to ourselves how one person's ideas (basic invention) become the foundation for many others (improvement inventions).

I'm happy to share what little I know and can contribute to woodworking ideas because I know how much I have benefitted from ideas shared by others on FOG.  Matthew S. has done a very good deed in setting up and running this forum.

Dave R.
 
It is amazing Dave. I have been practicing for almost 23 years. Our registration numbers are only about 3,600 apart, but I was not registered until 1987. That is only 400 new patent attorneys/year, unlike today. These kinds of discussions can get very complex very quickly. Most people do not understand patents. I agree with all you have said. I have said many, many times that most patents do not directly make any money.

BTW: The  "using" portion of my previous post is correct. As others have said, and I tried to say, it is just not financially feasible for patent holders to go after all of these uses. Whatever patents Festool has or may have in th3e future, the claims determine the scope of their rights. Patent claims are not easy to understand with out training. They are run-on sentences that usually contain "terms of art" (words that have accepted meaning in the technology) and words that have accepted legal meaning. Further the inventor can create his own terms as long as he does not use words contrary to their normal meaning.

Is this making things more confusing?  ;D

Doug R
 
Doug R said:
Patent claims are not easy to understand with out training. They are run-on sentences that usually contain "terms of art" (words that have accepted meaning in the technology) and words that have accepted legal meaning. Further the inventor can create his own terms as long as he does not use words contrary to their normal meaning.

Is this making things more confusing?  ;D

Doug R

I think I would rather read Beowulf in the original Old Enlgish ----- seriously, I would find myself cocking my head like a dog that is trying to understand his master and end up shaking my head and starting again.  ;) ---- patents are confusing by design I suppose.

Justin
 
Doug R said:
It is amazing Dave. I have been practicing for almost 23 years. Our registration numbers are only about 3,600 apart, but I was not registered until 1987. That is only 400 new patent attorneys/year, unlike today. These kinds of discussions can get very complex very quickly. Most people do not understand patents. I agree with all you have said. I have said many, many times that most patents do not directly make any money.

BTW: The  "using" portion of my previous post is correct. As others have said, and I tried to say, it is just not financially feasible for patent holders to go after all of these uses. Whatever patents Festool has or may have in th3e future, the claims determine the scope of their rights. Patent claims are not easy to understand with out training. They are run-on sentences that usually contain "terms of art" (words that have accepted meaning in the technology) and words that have accepted legal meaning. Further the inventor can create his own terms as long as he does not use words contrary to their normal meaning.

Is this making things more confusing?  ;D

Doug R

I just read there are well over a million patents backed up right now. It seems like you have no fear of not having work any time soon!

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2008/08/better-patents-through-crowdsourcing/

It seems their are many more ideas than the examiners can keep up with.
 
You are correct, Nick, in noting there is a huge backlog of patent applications.  In my opinion, much of it is due to our government not doing its job in this area, just as they are not doing their job in others, such as being a watch dog over the banking industry.  In a recent effort to try to reduce that backlog, the USPTO (US Patent and Trademark Office) essentially tried to pass much of their workload back onto the inventors and their attorneys and to cut out several statutory rights of inventors.  The federal courts shot down the USPTO proposal.  While spending resources on this effort, the backlog grew even larger.  In contrast, in the European Patent Office, there is no comparable backlog.

Doug is correct in trying to explain that patents are often complex, and that the inventor and patent attorney can be their own lexicograhper; just be sure to define what you mean by your new term.  I know of one important patent (read millions of $ hanging in balance) that was held invalid because the inventor/attorney inserted the term "partially soluble" in an effort to gain allowance of the patent claims, and never defined what that meant as distinguished from "soluble" and "insoluble."  The patent was granted, and later litigated due to infringement.  Because the term "partially soluble" was used in the patent claims, the patent was held to be vague and indefinite and therefore invalid and unenforceable.  I am writing this to try to give the FOG readers a little taste of the legalese games that can and do occur in regard to patent litigation.

Doug,

You are correct in noting that admissions to the patent bar are far lower than to the general bars of many states.  The rate of new admissions increased somewhat after I was admitted due to growing interest in the field, but it is still relatively low.

Dave R.
 
...sounds very complex and bureaucratic!! I guess its no wonder so many items have the 'patent pending' stamp. Some thing seem to have 'patent pending' for years.

As it has been explained, it seems that with a patent, a company or person basically has some pretty 'great' leverage in terms of the product and similiar products.

Say a person patents a cure for some deadly illness, like cancer. As explained, it seems that the person could decide not to use it to cure anyone...and on top of that, no one else would be permitted to produce it. It seems that the patent holder could 'demand the world' with the right patented product.

Is that the case? Does the government have the right, or power, to override a patent? If the person has a patented cure for cancer but, for whatever reason, choose not to produce it, could the government jump in and produce in the name of humanity?

I guess this would be akin to government take over by 'eminent domain'. Does that happen? If your house can be taken over by eminent domain for public interest, can your patent be taken over by eminent domain for public interest?
 
Rey,

Yes, it can and does happen, for purposes of national security and public policy, including health issues. 

Waaayy back during the 1970's energy "crisis" when the Ford Pinto automobile was being manufactured, the US government suspended enforcement of a patent covering the manufacture of certain engines, allowing machinery needed to make the more fuel efficient engines to be imported and used.  The patent owner had tried to stop the importation through legal action in the FTC as well as sue in federal court for an injunction and damages.  The patent dealt with techniques for crank pin grinding.  There are statutes governing use of a patent for government purposes, e.g. the US army wants to use your patented new gun sight and needs them in large quantities.  The government will authorize other contractors to make the sights they need and you will have to sue the government to get compensated.  Those other manufacturers will be protected from you suing them directly by the terms of their contracts with the government and by federal statute.  You are correct in viewing this as analogous to eminent domain.  The legal basis is in the Fifth Amendment of the US Constitution, which covers more than protecting an individual from having to testify against himself.

Fifth Amendment of US Constitution [proposed 1789, ratified 1791]:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.  [Emphasis added]

Dave R.

 
Very insightful!! I bet that the minutiae and breadth of this made for a pretty interesting career. Thanks for the feedback.
 
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