Festool TS55/Kapex Blades

[hhh]

I've used Forrest's Sharpening Service for over a decade.. It's generally regarded as top-shelf...

I sent five blades to Forrest on Monday: two Forrest and three Festool. On the Festool side, there were two Kapex and one TS55 blade.

Today I received a return box from Forrest where each Festool blade was marked Rejected/No Work Done in large block capitals... There was note enclosed stating that Forrest's sharpening service will no longer accept Festool blades -- Kapex blades in particular, but my TS55 blades were also rejected...

The note says that Festool is delivering blades with "erratic uneven tooth spacing" which causes "Mis-Grind"/uneven resharpening...

Each Festool blade was marked showing which teeth were uneven -- and sure enough, when I put a caliper to the blade, the teeth marked had a different spacing than the others... It averaged four teeth per blade...

This is a serious problem... Between my Kapex, TS55 and TS75, I've got about ten blades...

Can a Festool employee please provide a path forward. I need to get four blades sharpened asap and I need a long-term solution...

Thanks.

BTW: Forrest also "helpfully" provided an insert with their part numbers for Festool saws --- how thoughtful of them...

 

[RKA]

A similar thread was started a month or two ago.  It was suggested to try a different sharpening service.  Among the places recommended was burnstools.com.  It was also suggested that this erratic spacing was intentional. I'm not sure where the truth lies.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Burns Tools should be able to sharpen your Festool blades without any problems.

 

[hhh]

==>It was suggested to try a different sharpening service.  Among the places recommended was burnstools.com.
I'll look into Burns -- thanks. If push comes to shove, I'll use them as a last resort to get back up and running asap. However, that's not really a long-term solution...

The only real answer is to return these blades for credit and purchasing Tenryu and/or Forrest blades in the future... I mean, let's get real... Forrest is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, service in North America... If they say something's wrong with the blades, mark my blades with a Sharpe, and have pre-printed cards saying they're rejecting Festool's blades, then it's fairly safe to suspect somethings wrong... If I had gotten something similar from 'Joe-Average-Local Sharpener' -- then sure, error on the side of the Green... But we're not talking 'Joe-Average'...

Sure, the blades can be sharpened by simply grinding a lot of carbide per tooth... I mean, I'll get a blade that's sharp -- but it'll also have half it's service life gone with the first sharpening... For a top-shelf blade, it's reasonable to expect between six to eight sharpenings over service life... I've got nothing against Burns, but if they 'fix' the problem by grinding a few extra thou from each tooth to 'even things out', then I might as well buy a Freud blade for $35...

==>It was also suggested that this erratic spacing was intentional
A suggestion like that could only have come from Festool's Sales/Marketing Group or someone who not only drank too much Kool-Aid, but positively drowned in it...  There is no way erratic spacing is intentional... It's called erratic for a reason -- two teeth one one blade, five on another -- teeth in different positions, some in a row, some not. No, this is a MFG/QC issue -- full stop.

I'll contact FestoolUSA on Monday. I think the only valid path forward is to return these blades for a swap or credit... But that still doesn't fix the long-term problem... Folks are receiving blades that may or may not be defective and won't know until they get sharpened... And even then, they might not know... The blades will be returned sharp, but how much carbide will have to be removed to get it that way? Exactly how much service life is sacrificed during the first sharpening?

 

[Wooden Skye]

I see you are also in NJ, I would reach out to Ken at Tooltown.  He sends Festool blades out and the turnaround is about a week.

 

[hhh]

==>Ken at Tooltown
Thanks. Never been to Tooltown. Will take a look...

 

[Wooden Skye]

They are in Paramus.  Ken is really responsive and helpful, and is a member here on the FOG!

 

[Distinctive Interiors]

I was aware that some of the Festool TS55 blades had varying spaces between the teeth. We are not talking about a few thou of an inch here, either.

I cant remember the exact spacing, but if I remember roughly, it is 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, then 10mm,11mm,12mm again, and so on.

This is on my 48T blade that came with my TS55.

TBH with you, I assumed the spacing was done for a specific reason.

Perhaps someone from Festool Technical can shed some light on the reason behind the odd spacing!!!????

Tim

 

[hhh]

==> it is 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, then 10mm,11mm,12mm again, and so on

I suppose if my blades had a repetitive pattern, I may be tempted to think it was by design...

When taking a caliper to TS55 blade #1, it's 11, 11.03, 11.2, 10.9, 11.2, 10.8, then a string of 11s. However, taking a caliper to TS55 blade #2: 11, 11.8, 11.3, 11.5 followed by a string of 11s then a 10.8...

Two different blades, two different sets of measurements.... Not by design...

I talked to my dealer this afternoon --- he's only hearing about this in the last couple of months... The TS55/Kapex has been around how long? If this was a design feature, folks would have mentioned it years ago...

If I were the betting type, I'd put money on a new MFG line starting-up in the last six months...

 

[Serge]

It is the design of the blades, I noticed this when I purchased my Kapex december 2013 and had problems with the blades.

Kapex blade 60 teeth
[attachimg=#]

Kapex Blade 80 teeth
[attachimg=#]

 

[Frank-Jan]

...
==>It was also suggested that this erratic spacing was intentional
A suggestion like that could only have come from Festool's Sales/Marketing Group or someone who not only drank too much Kool-Aid, but positively drowned in it...  There is no way erratic spacing is intentional... It's called erratic for a reason -- two teeth one one blade, five on another -- teeth in different positions, some in a row, some not. No, this is a MFG/QC issue -- full stop.

I can't find the thread that discussed the reason for the variable tooth spacing on the kapex blades; but I don't need callipers to see that they aren't spaced evenly; I very much doubt it's by accident.

 

[John Bates]

My TS55 blade nearly wrecked the saw doctor that I used's machine. He wasn't happy but hadn't done any damage because he looked. They can be sharpened normally but require a bit more individual attention rather than an auto setting which would Muller a sharpening auto grinder.
I don't know of a reason to have odd teeth, anyone?

 

[peter halle]

I am not an engineer, nor do I design saw blades, but from what I have read over the years altering the pattern in saw blades can reduce noise for one thing because it disrupts the harmonic pattern.

One thing that I will throw out there is that Festool designs their blades to work specifically with their tools.  The blades are made to their specs by a highly recognized manufacturer to very high standards.

I can imagine that an automated saw blade sharpening machine would indeed have an issue.  Human interaction would be necessary and frankly might not make it worth the while of a sharpening company who is not used to dealing with a varying pattern.

I am not saying anything against Forrest here, just sitting on my fence post and seeing both sides.

Peter

 

[John Bates]

Does any other saw blade manufacturer do this? If there is a reason behind it perhaps it could be explained, if not is the current stock blades the same?

 

[Crox G]

I believe that some bandsaw blades are made with variable tooth spacing, for the reason that Peter gives.  See Highland Hardware's Wood-Slicer resaw blade, for example.

Crox

 

[hhh]

==>Kapex blade 60 teeth
Now I'm interested... I'm going to go look at my K60 blade... That's the stock blade? I've got one, but not sure I've used it. I use the K80 or the Chopmaster.

From what I received today, the blades don't look that pronounced -- they look like the photo in the booklet that comes with the blade... I'll have to shot a photo and figure-out how to upload...

 

[peter halle]

The variable spaced blades have been around for quite a while ( google was my friend because I too was curious).  Here is a screen shot fro Oleson's website - Oleson is a venerable blade manufacturer going back oddles of decades regarding VPD blades:

[attachimg=#]

Peter

 

[peter halle]

This has been mentioned here countless times, but I will offer a link.  Festool blades appear to be made by Leitz - there are even videos here where they who the manufacturing process and then it is a Festool blade.  They may also be an option for sharpening services:

http://www.leitztooling.com/locations.htm

Peter

 

[tbellemare]

Tooth design and spacing is part science and intuition with repetitive analysis to close on the ultimate solution. The same is true of plate design of saw blades.

I worked with a company in Houston optimizing the design of oil well drill bits that used PCD (diamond) disks to scrape the formation and make a hole. It was important to balance the forces exerted on each diamond disk or one might wear/break prematurely. We worked out a way to analyze the forces exerted and iteratively change the design to balance the forces.

I have to assume that saw blade designers are doing something very similar. They have the added issue of resonance, which isn't really an issue at the speed oil well drill bits turn...

There aren't many modern saw blades that haven't been through serious engineering iterations. The danger factor is too high.

To my knowledge, Festool saw blades are made by Leitz Tooling. I don't think there is any cutting tool company on the Planet that eclipses Leitz.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Send the blades back to Leitz. Seeing as they made them, I'm pretty sure they can sharpen them.  [wink]

Actually I know they can sharpen them, they sharpen all of my blades.

I sent out;

1- 60 tooth Kapex blade

6- TS 55 48 tooth blades

1-TS 55 28 tooth blade

1- Festool 19mm mortising router bit.

Turn around time was 5 days. Cedar Lake In., to Grands Rapids MI., sharpened, and back in my hands.

They'll sharpen anyones blade, including Forrest, better than Forrest does.

Here is their locations section of their website, call the number, press 1. If you trust the post office a a medium priority mail box held all of the above blades in their original sleeves. Leitz returns my blades to me in the original sleeves.

http://www.leitztooling.com/locations.htm

I know someone who sent Tenneryu blades to Leitz, they came back with the tooth geometry hand written on the blade. They really do know what they are doing.

Tom