Festool vs Wen

[smorgasbord]

Mostly humorous video from a DIYer, not a woodworker:

TLDR: The ETS/EC saves you time, so its worth it no matter what. The track saw and jig saw, not worth the extra dollars. The router, well the OF2200 is the best router in the world, but hard to justify the cost for homeowners.

 

[Vtshopdog]

For Wen Harbor Freight's not good enough???
(Couldn’t pass it up….)

Actually have a couple Wen tools I purchased for low use, not important to me applications and they do what they’re supposed to, no complaints. 

 

[Jim_in_PA]

John, ex-NFL-er, is actually a pretty good woodworker. He's been doing these comparisons for a bit and also buying pallets of returns from various brands/places to see if they were worth it for his more humorous videos.

 

[Packard]

When I decided to dip my toe into scroll saw work, I got a Wen unit.  Pretty straightforward, and works fine so far.  The dust collection works when I hook it up to the shop dust collector, but not so much with the shop vac.  Also, the little blower nozzle does not always clear the cutting path.  Bout a workman-like piece of equipment.  A small-ish throat, so not for large pieces.  But overall, OK.

 

[Cheese]

Wen...who'd have thunk?

The last Wen product I purchased was a soldering iron probably circa 1960's. They were a big deal back then as they had dual tip temperatures, so instead of having to change the heating unit, you just pulled the tigger one more step backwards and the heat increased.  I can't believe folks are still purchasing their stuff... [eek]...just another famous brand name that's been sold to the Chinese for a buck so that they can capitalize on the name and produce junk that resonates with older folks. Tragic...sounds like Westinghouse...RCA...Zenith...add infinitum. 

 

[Duckler]

Mr. Cheese,
You are probably mistaken. Weller made soldering guns like you describe.
But Wen? I have doubts.

 

[mino]

Mostly humorous video from a DIYer, not a woodworker:
..
TLDR: The ETS/EC saves you time, so its worth it no matter what. The track saw and jig saw, not worth the extra dollars. The router, well the OF2200 is the best router in the world, but hard to justify the cost for homeowners.

Sanders:
Agreed! Holds even compared to the Blue Bosch, Makita etc.

Track saw:
Disagree, the cheapest to consider is the Makita SP6000J. Even cheaper is a used TS 55 (non-R) or even the ATF 55.

Jigsaw:
Well, he compared to the Carvex. For a casual single-jigsaw user, the Trion is better. Cuts straighter, is cheaper. A Trion with a rail can in theory even replace a tracksaw if some is on a very tight budget.

Router:
Completely absurd comparison. Indicates the guy is either clueless or had an ulterior motive.

Comparing OF 2200 to some chinesium 1/2" router is borderline absurd. That is like comparing a turboprop Cessna with a Citation.

In Europe, he should have included the OF 1010 as that is the model a "hobby" user should get instead of a 1800 (cheapo) watts unwieldy monster. Or at least the OF 1400 for the US folks.

IN summary:
A "homeowner" should get optimally:
1) (used?) Trion + rail attachment + FS/2 1400 LR32
2) CT 15 + cheapo orbital sander
3) ETS 125
4) OF 1010 /alternative: Makita XGT router/
(skip a tracksaw)

That gives the best bang for the bug as far as the breadth of tasks one can do at a minimum cost and footprint.

All new items. Continuing on, add things as applicable. E.g. a used ATF 55 or TS 55 is a great choice.

 

[peter halle]

John lost me as a viewer once he started with his "most dangerous" videos and his "I bought a pallet of..." and also his comparison videos of non apple to apple quality items.

Peter

 

[Holzhacker]

I'm always dubious of videos / reviews like that, especially from a guy who has that much woodpecker stuff hanging on his wall.
I bought some Wen tool years ago. Don't even remember what it was. I think it barely made it through one job site. There were times when I was working in really rough areas that I bought cheap tools like that to use on those job sites so if we got robbed, I didn't lose my good tools.
If someone is a homeowner, DIY person, its a gift, whatever, those tools are fine.
For me, I need tools to survive a job site reliably. If a tool breaks down, the time lost is more than any purchase savings. I've spent decades buying cheap and expensive tools.
Would I like to buy the festool sawmill? Sure maybe but probably will never. Sticking with the old reliable Milwaukee I know I can beat the crap out of.
Do I want to use my TS75 when doing a porch with nasty wet treated lumber? No, that's when the almighty Skil worm drive comes out to play.
I'm sure the videos are great for him and probably makes money I don't know. Seems less than entirely professional.

 

[Peter Kelly]

The set of two 50 inch tracks that WEN sells is totally useless. One by itself is too short to cross cut a 48 inch wide sheet of material but two linked together is really awkward. A 100 inch rail to cut the long edge of a 96-97 inch sheet? Not long enough to the get the saw full on the track before starting the cut.

 

[mino]

The set of two 50 inch tracks that WEN sells is totally useless. One by itself is too short to cross cut a 48 inch wide sheet of material but two linked together is really awkward. A 100 inch rail to cut the long edge of a 96-97 inch sheet? Not long enough to the get the saw full on the track before starting the cut.

And that is before you check how (non) straight they are ...

 

[Svar]

The set of two 50 inch tracks that WEN sells is totally useless. One by itself is too short to cross cut a 48 inch wide sheet of material but two linked together is really awkward. A 100 inch rail to cut the long edge of a 96-97 inch sheet? Not long enough to the get the saw full on the track before starting the cut.

Materials comes in different sizes, so no track is totally useless, perhaps not ideal. Between FT and Mafell rails come in 12 different lengths: 30, 32, 42, 55, 63, 75, 95, 106, 118, 122, 197, 236 inches. I don't think 50 and 100 from WEN are very much out out of place.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

John lost me as a viewer once he started with his "most dangerous" videos and his "I bought a pallet of..." and also his comparison videos of non apple to apple quality items.

Peter

I was out a little before that. Early on, when the original helpers (Sam & Jordan) worked in the shop, the content was much better. They did the "Beginner, Intermediate, Pro" comparison builds, shop projects, some remodels in John's house, etc. The move to the new shop and their challenges with that, were still good. When the guys left, the wheels fell off, he seemed desperate to still remain relevant.
The whole thing of, the Mega-sized bandsaw mill, looked a bit copycat-ish, but I was still ok.
After that, the new guys, just didn't feel right?
It still comes up in my suggestions sometimes, but I haven't watched for a while.

IN summary:
A "homeowner" should get optimally:
1) (used?) Trion + rail attachment + FS/2 1400 LR32
2) CT 15 + cheapo orbital sander
3) ETS 125
4) OF 1010 /alternative: Makita XGT router/
(skip a tracksaw)

That gives the best bang for the bug as far as the breadth of tasks one can do at a minimum cost and footprint.

All new items. Continuing on, add things as applicable. E.g. a used ATF 55 or TS 55 is a great choice.

Is your summary assuming this person already has a small table saw?

I realize we a speculating here, and it totally depends on what this homeowner would need to cut, but I can't see "skip the track saw", leaving this person with nothing but a jigsaw for cutting?

On the Wen topic. I had a hand planer in the old shop 7-8 years ago. It was some cheap thing I bought from Amazon, having no idea about it at all. It worked fine, for what I needed at the time, but I have never replaced it. I use one so rarely, that it didn't seem important.

 

[mino]

Is your summary assuming this person already has a small table saw?

I realize we a speculating here, and it totally depends on what this homeowner would need to cut, but I can't see "skip the track saw", leaving this person with nothing but a jigsaw for cutting?

On the Wen topic. I had a hand planer in the old shop 7-8 years ago. It was some cheap thing I bought from Amazon, having no idea about it at all. It worked fine, for what I needed at the time, but I have never replaced it. I use one so rarely, that it didn't seem important.

no, I was thinking along:

IF I had no tools to speak off *), what would be the tools - knowing what I know today - I would buy first if I wanted to do anything resembling cabinetry.
Assumption being I can spare under $50/mo on tools for the foreseeable future of 5 yrs or so.

Under that circumstance - having personally gone through all kinds if options over the last decade, from $30 jigsaws, $70 tracksaws, up to a TSC, Carvex and Trion, I would get a Trion and an LR32 rail first. With that, I can do 99% of the work I thought of doing *before* messing around with cabinetry.

Then I will follow with a dust extractor and a cheapo sander. The dust extractor being good-enough for indoor use being more important than a sander being any good.

Having a DE, next step is to upgrade to a good sander. Again, a good sander means I could repair/fix a LOT of things comfortably.

Having that, the next step is a router and the OF 1010 it is (yes, I do mean this, not a joke, a beginning guy *wants* a great router as while an experienced one can handle a Walmart "router" with good results, a newbie not so much.)

====
These three (four with DE) tools would get me to a point I could do almost any small project could think of. Not efficiently, no. But I could do it. And do it well. Unlike with spending the same money on a "full complement" of "Wen" tools from which none can do anything well and I would only struggle - like I actually did. Lost one would-be-wife for that "save on tools" approach, BTW.

Think about it. You can buy sheet goods cut to size, even if approximate, and then do them precise with a rail and an OF 1010.
But try having a lumber yard do you grooves ... the OF 1010 will start looking afforable fast.

So to me a sander + dust extractor and a router are a higher priority - these do tasks which a homeowner cannot easily "outsource". The Jigsaw - being the tool of last resort - is a despised but a mandatory item, hence starting with it. And it must be a Trion or P1cc. As it would be the "only" saw for some time.

My 2c.

*) ignoring a drill and a big store angle grinder which everyone should have regardless

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=61254]mino[/member] I'm with you there. Cheap tools just add to the learning curve, but I think it would be a hard sell to get a homeowner/hobbyist to ever spend $500+ on a router. Would they appreciate the difference? Probably, but spend a year's worth of $50/monthly allotment? on one tool? and that doesn't include bits.

 

[mino]

[member=61254]mino[/member] I'm with you there. Cheap tools just add to the learning curve, but I think it would be a hard sell to get a homeowner/hobbyist to ever spend $500+ on a router. Would they appreciate the difference? Probably, but spend a year's worth of $50/monthly allotment? on one tool? and that doesn't include bits.

Yeah.

I thought exactly like that - like every normal person does. And got a Narex router (with OF 1010 spindle) and a Narex version of the RS 2 E for $ 600 total 8 yrs ago.

Now, not get me wrong
- the router has an OF 1010 motor, it is a precise goat, BUT, the ergonomy is just not there, the accessories are limited and this drives the actual value way down, to a point I just bolted it to the LR32 plate as that is the only use where the ergonomy does not matter and the excellent spindle works well still, as sold, the OF 1010 spindle was pretty much wasted in it
- the RS 2 E "Narex version" is an excellent sander, lacking only PlugIt ... which bothered me immensely once I got the CT. So I converted it to an RS 200 (swapped chassis + electronics board, still saving me $100 or so, but, that was special geo-limited deal - that version of the sander is no longer made anyway

So, in retrospect, I got absolutely terrific deals on both. BUT. Despite this I would not do this again. I should have just gotten the RS 200 and possibly a cheap Maktec router and save up on an OF 1010 then.

It is good to remember that a hobby user is not a professional - it is no problem to stagger purchases over a couple years.

Again, it is not so much about the learning curve, but more about "AFTER" I know how to use a tool, I can buy one with worse ergonomy. But, by the time I got those skills, the better tool would have payed for itself (if anything in the joy of using it) multiple times over. I know, a completely different look than in the professional world.

Bits I take sideways, those are project-specific and tool-independent, so go from a different budget in most cases.

 

[cpw]

When I was starting in DIY, I had the theory that quantity is a quality all of it's own; and still stick to it.  I would buy a cheap but serviceable tool, starting out with a lot of Ryobi and RIDGID when home depot was clearing out most of the stationary tools on sale.  Having the right tool for the job, like a circular saw for cutting sheet goods or eventually a $500 cast iron contractor saw let me do a lot of projects and build my skill.

Some of the upgrades like the 410mm jointer/planer and 16" bandsaw definitely let me take on more projects; but my 3hp saw stop doesn't actually do anything that my contractor saw didn't let me do.  The OF2200 is way nicer than the Crafstman 3 base router kit I started with; but is also 5x the price and can let me do things better.

I think you need some early success to want to keep going, and inexpensive power tools are good way to get it.  If you can't actually build something useful without being overly frustrated, then what's the point.  I've never used a Wen tool, so I don't know if they are good enough to be serviceable; but in most categories there are definitely budget tools that are.

Home improvement style things definitely help here, because you can easily justify quite a few tools and time spent learning by saving a lot of money on labor.

 

[mino]

...
I think you need some early success to want to keep going, and inexpensive power tools are good way to get it.
...

Understand your points. Just would like to state that - in my experience - it was the exact opposite.

Inexpensive power tools were a good way to get some embarassing failures in my case. Successes, not so much.

I would have done cabinetry 20+ years ago had in not been for my experience (and embarassment to GF of the time (!) of getting cheap tools:
- a jigsaw that would not cut even remotely straight
- a circular saw which would vibrate so much it would de-laminate 2 layers worth fof plywood in its "operation"
- a drill that would not drill straight
- an angle grinder that would overheat and/or stop inside the material

Each and every of these fails cost me often more money in destroyed materials, not even counting mantime, than was the cost of the "tools". And each resulted in me putting off any serious messing with cabinetry for a couple years, in total by 20 years.

Tha problem is hindsight - lacking experience, I DID NOT know the problem was the jigsaw (not me). The Circular saw blade (not me), the drill bearings (not me), the angle grinder being just an underpowered POS (not me). As a result I (and people around me) have universally blamed the disasters on my "incompetence". Now, sure, I was no seasoned handy man, never will be, but each and every of those failed projects up until about the time I bought the Narex tools was caused by "cheap and cheerfull" tools.

The thing is, some of those tools I would maybe buy again - KNOWING how/when to use them now, their inadequacy would not be such an issue. But back then these were deal breakers. As such I stand by my position that learning with bad tools is waste of material, waste of time, and generally does NOT make one a qualified person - the skills acquired using a bad tool are mostly about "what cannot be done" and these do not transfer to good tools, resulting in one using very sub-optimal approaches to make things.

Sorry for the spam.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Understand your points. Just would like to state that - in my experience - it was the exact opposite.

Inexpensive power tools were a good way to get some embarassing failures in my case. Successes, not so much.

Exact same for me, early on I really had no appreciation for better tools over cheap as function is the same right? No.

I wasted so much money on buying and constantly replacing cheap tools that gave poor to mediocre results thinking that was normal, but it wasn't until I bought my Festo AT55 and guiderail as I was hanging so many doors, and realised the massive difference between cheap and more expensive tools. When I started developing constant wrist and arm pain I bought the RS2E sander, and that was it, no going back to crappy tools again!

Over 40 years later I'm working completely pain free so have no qualms at all buying quality tools that not only last, but dramatically improve every aspect of using tools.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Don't apologize [member=61254]mino[/member] I really enjoy these interactive conversations. I hope we can all gain from these different perspectives.
I am fully aware that my view is at least somewhat influenced by using tools for a living. For me, it's about efficiency, meaning multiples of things like routers.
However, I started as a homeowner/hobbyist with a ShopSmith, a full-sized drill press, a benchtop bandsaw, and a corded drill. Cordless drills weren't a thing until I was working in a bodyshop (Makita with the stick battery up the handle and a keyed chuck)
I had several Festool tools before I ever considered one of their routers....or a track saw, for that matter.
Getting both of those changed the way I work, almost immediately.