Festool VS600 worth acquiring if I get a Domino anyway?

[RC]

Since I got a rather unanimous vote on getting an Domino DF500 next into my growing Festool arsenal I would still like to bounce another related question off you lot.

What I'm asking I guess is that since I will be investing in a DF500 in the near future do I still need to consider getting a dovetailing jig to make sturdy drawers or can I get away with a Domino only?

At this time I'm not confident enough to hazard designing dovetails into anything hand cut but wondering would a couple of Dominoes in the side panel to face panel handle the pull stress of a drawer or would the gluing be just bad cross grain?

 

[RONWEN]

I've built lots of drawers using the Domino as you describe with excellent results -- very sturdy.  I've also built many using the Leigh dovetail jig -- fast, simple and very sturdy.  I've built some using the hand cut method -- I'm still not pleased with my results, practice, practice, practice.  [blink] 
I believe the options with dovetail styles is (far?) greater with the Leigh jig over the Festool jig although I don't have experience with the Festool jig.

I guess I didn't really respond directly to your question:  Very sturdy drawers can be built using the Domino and if I didn't have the Leigh jig first before the Domino I probably wouldn't have bought a dovetail jig.  That would pretty much force developing skills hand cutting dovetails.  Strength wise the Dominoed drawer is plenty strong enough, appearance wise dovetails look nicer.

 

[sancho57]

Strength wise I dont think there is a difference. Ease of making the drawers 50/50, But the for esthetic beauty of the joint the dovetail jig.

But you can always make your own domino with contrasting species/ colors that will give ou a beautiful look joint.

Check out this from Timber Cabinets, go towards the bottom, First is a chair, second one is a drawer

http://www.timbercabinets.com.au/?page_id=420

 

[VictorL]

Hmmm. I've never thought about it. I do have VS-600 and DF-500. I do build drawer boxes with dominoes, dovetails, and box joints. All of these methods are strong enough for regular duty drawer boxes.

Domino. Pros: Easier to build. Less material waste.
VS-600 Pros: More aesthetic joints. Stronger for heavy duty boxes.

So, it's up to you which method to use.

VictorL

 

[Tinker]

I have fooled around off and on with making dovetail joints.  I have a Wood Rat that is tricky for setting up, but can make any size DT including different sizes and spacing on same joint.  But the dust that blows around.  Nasty.

I got the 600 and set it up once.  I only make one project at a time, so it is too much time for setting up.

Recently, i picked up a Keller Dovetail jig.  Within a half hour out of the box, i had it set up, clamped to my MFT/3 and cut perfect joints without having to readjust anything.  It is one of the less expensive jigs. With my limited experience, it is somewhat limited in scope, but it is easy, quick and fun to make DT's.  Once I get to making them fast and clean, i might get into making larger projects or more of one at same time.

Actually, in original setup, it took me the most time to find a couple of 2x4 scraps to mount the two mating jigs.  Following directions was simple and quick.

Tinker

 

[RC]

Mmmmkay, sounds like I should pass on the second hand VS600 that is on sale at the moment on the local craigslist since it's not really even cheap @ 400€ (just the VS600 + SZ14 template which go for 470€ new).

Maybe I'll look into the Leigh jigs when the time to do dovetail joints comes.  [scratch chin]

 

[ccarrolladams]

Very sturdy and functional drawer boxes can be made using Dominoes. That is taught in the Festool End User Doors and Drawers class.

All through the late 1940s up to 1961 I only built dovetail drawers. At that point I was so busy with my movie studio career I found reliable sources for the drawer boxes I needed.

The reason I opened my shop in 2010 was that my clients are going to resell the cabinets we make to end customers who willingly pay the high asking price while expecting perfection. Apparently all those end customers think dovetail is the only way to hold strong drawer boxes together.

I devoted much of 2011 researching commercial drawer manufacturing, just in case I ever became frustrated with my West Coast drawer box vendors. I bought an all Alexander Dodds Company drawer manufacturing system which includes a CNC dovetail router and a state-of-the-art drawer powered assembly machine. This is just as well, because over the past year there has been a sea change in the types of drawers specified. For example, in pantries for months adjustable shelves have been replaced by "sliding shelves" which really are drawers with low fronts and no attached fancy drawer front.

That is a style where Dominoes do not work well. The strain is on the low front, where there is not enough room for Dominoes. Dovetails gives enough area for glue to be very effective. With drawers there is less strain at the back. With sliding shelves the back and most of the sides can be full height, but there is so little saving using Dominoes once your plant has a Dodds drawer system.

During a class I made decorative drawers by using Sipo dominoes with through mortises. The Sipo contrasted nicely with the light maple drawer sides.

For our high-end drawer boxes we often use cherry or walnut for the front, so those dovetails contrast with the maple sides and backs.

 

[Kev]

Very sturdy and functional drawer boxes can be made using Dominoes. That is taught in the Festool End User Doors and Drawers class.

All through the late 1940s up to 1961 I only built dovetail drawers. At that point I was so busy with my movie studio career I found reliable sources for the drawer boxes I needed.

The reason I opened my shop in 2010 was that my clients are going to resell the cabinets we make to end customers who willingly pay the high asking price while expecting perfection. Apparently all those end customers think dovetail is the only way to hold strong drawer boxes together.

I devoted much of 2011 researching commercial drawer manufacturing, just in case I ever became frustrated with my West Coast drawer box vendors. I bought an all Alexander Dodds Company drawer manufacturing system which includes a CNC dovetail router and a state-of-the-art drawer powered assembly machine. This is just as well, because over the past year there has been a sea change in the types of drawers specified. For example, in pantries for months adjustable shelves have been replaced by "sliding shelves" which really are drawers with low fronts and no attached fancy drawer front.

That is a style where Dominoes do not work well. The strain is on the low front, where there is not enough room for Dominoes. Dovetails gives enough area for glue to be very effective. With drawers there is less strain at the back. With sliding shelves the back and most of the sides can be full height, but there is so little saving using Dominoes once your plant has a Dodds drawer system.

During a class I made decorative drawers by using Sipo dominoes with through mortises. The Sipo contrasted nicely with the light maple drawer sides.

For our high-end drawer boxes we often use cherry or walnut for the front, so those dovetails contrast with the maple sides and backs.

OK ... "movie studio career" ... Ready to listen  [smile]

 

[Kev]

I too am on the dovetail jig fence so to speak.

Tinker's comments on the 600 surprise me as I thought rapid setup, but no pattern variation possible were it's claim.

Realistically I want something simple - but would also like something with creative flexibility. From what I've seen this is a contradiction and you would end up with two jigs - and still be limited to hand cut dovetails for anything really distinctive.

The woodrat looks like an engineering experiment to me - not my cup of ...

Ultimately I can see me getting a VS600, plus something with adjustable fingers soon after ... But I'm trying to see a Gifkins dovetail jig demonstrated well before I make up my mind.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Kev, if my career is of interest to you, just drop me a FOG PM.

 

[peter halle]

Kev,  I hope you do PM.  Should be a book or more!

Peter

 

[RONWEN]

Keep in mind there are many, many professionals behind the scenes (cameras) not just the stars of the movies...  [wink]

 

[jacko9]

Ray,

I have the Leigh dovetail jig, the Craftsman dovetail jig, and the Domino and I still cut dovetails with a saw and chisel.  I could make satisfactory drawers with any of the above with the Domino being the easiest given different wood dimensions. 

 

[Kev]

Ray,

I have the Leigh dovetail jig, the Craftsman dovetail jig, and the Domino and I still cut dovetails with a saw and chisel.  I could make satisfactory drawers with any of the above with the Domino being the easiest given different wood dimensions. 

Oh dear, that's not the silver bullet I wanted  [scared]

Nice collection of jigs though.

 

[upscale]

What I'm asking I guess is that since I will be investing in a DF500 in the near future do I still need to consider getting a dovetailing jig to make sturdy drawers or can I get away with a Domino only?

To be honest, while there may be a little overlap in some areas, the joining systems of the two are so radically different that I wouldn't even think of comparing the two. But, that being said, here are some pictures from a friend who does use his Domino to decoratively join some drawer fronts in a way that most would usually equate to dovetails.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/5430427293/#in/set-72157622991960362/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/5471707872/#in/set-72157622991960362/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6485169951/#in/set-72157622991960362/lightbox/

 

[JSands]

Sancho, that is a brilliant application for domino.  For some reason though, the square look doesn't seem to add much aesthetics vs. the nice rounded edge pure domino links above.  But I can think of many applications where this concept would be applicable, so thx for sharing with us.

Considering the speed and strength of these boxes, I would think the domino might be the new force de jour in drawer box making.  Sure, not the tradition and beauty of perfect dovetails, but different looking, which is nice to see.  I would think using a high contrast domino would be ideal, making the tenon obvious, vs. an "almost match".....  great links guys, thx for sharing.

 

[RC]

Thanks Upscale & others,

I actually sort of like the domino box joint with through sipo dominoes and it being visually pleasing enough for me & some night stands in the future I'd rather throw the 400-600€ of a dovetail jig towards either a RO90/150 sander or a carvex Set. Or succumb to the seiren call of a CXS SYS2 promo set  (I know I don't need one, but I still want one for no logical reason - guess it has something to do with the storage lid [doh])

 

[sancho57]

"Or succumb to the seiren call of a CXS SYS2 promo set  (I know I don't need one, but I still want one for no logical reason - guess it has something to do with the storage lid [doh])"

Thats the one your gonna end up getting :>D

 

[Kev]

What I'm asking I guess is that since I will be investing in a DF500 in the near future do I still need to consider getting a dovetailing jig to make sturdy drawers or can I get away with a Domino only?

To be honest, while there may be a little overlap in some areas, the joining systems of the two are so radically different that I wouldn't even think of comparing the two. But, that being said, here are some pictures from a friend who does use his Domino to decoratively join some drawer fronts in a way that most would usually equate to dovetails.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/5430427293/#in/set-72157622991960362/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/5471707872/#in/set-72157622991960362/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/6485169951/#in/set-72157622991960362/lightbox/

Tell your friend that they do really nice work !  [smile]

 

[Kev]

Thanks Upscale & others,

I actually sort of like the domino box joint with through sipo dominoes and it being visually pleasing enough for me & some night stands in the future I'd rather throw the 400-600€ of a dovetail jig towards either a RO90/150 sander or a carvex Set. Or succumb to the seiren call of a CXS SYS2 promo set  (I know I don't need one, but I still want one for no logical reason - guess it has something to do with the storage lid [doh])

Stop kidding yourself about "OR" ... it's only a matter of "WHEN".

Here's the real problem with this sort of addiction ... you'll never get thrown out of a hardware store for buying too many tools!