Festool's Official Kapex Issue Announcement

[ccmviking]

FIS 07-25-08

Kapex technical issue:

A technical issue has become apparent simultaneously and coincidentally with the U.S. market launch. The issue involves the free movement of the table of the saw through the full miter range. We have recently concluded that the clearance of the locking mechanism is creating an operational issue.

Abnormal Operation:

When the Kapex miter lock is engaged, the saw can lock infinitely to any miter angle throughout the entire range. This is accomplished by a post that rides on the top of the scale and a spring steel plate that engages the bottom of the miter scale. To allow free movement throughout the radius of that scale when the handle is unlocked, there must be a gap present between the spring steel plate (black plate under the handle) and the bottom of the miter scale. This gap should be between 0.2mm and 0.4mm, measuring between the spring steel plate and bottom of the miter scale when unlocked. Too much gap between the spring steel plate and the miter scale will prevent the saw from locking aggressively as it was designed.

Normal Operation:

1. The miter lock handle is shipped in the locked position. The Kapex utilizes a cam action lock to firmly secure the saw to the desired miter angle. To release the lock, the handle should be pulled firmly upward until the lock is disengaged. This motion can be felt and heard.

2, Once unlocked it is possible to move the saw through the entire miter range from 50? left to 60? right. During this movement it is possible to encounter an audible and definitive clicking sound as the saw is engaging the miter presets across the range. To avoid engaging the stops and the related sound, the lock handle is equipped with a detent override that allows the saw to bypass these stops.

Resolution:

This issue does not affect every saw. We have already examined all units in our inventory for this issue. Saws that measured a gap of less than 0.2mm were less than 4% of our total inventory. We will continue to monitor and inspect incoming units. Our production line in Germany is duplicating this effort as well at the production line. In addition our sales force has already spot examined and corrected units that dealers already received prior to the discovery of this issue.

 

[ccmviking]

I had heard that there were only going to be 800 Kapex's in the U.S. at launch time (how many actually made it?).  That would be a total of 32 saws that have an issue.  A very unlucky group here indeed.  There are 29 reported on the Poll.  I had (2), HoneyDo had (2)...  So I am actually planning a trip to Vegas in the next few weeks.  Should I wager any more?  These kind of things are supposed to come in 3's you know.  Maybe my Sawhelper bracket issue can count for the 3rd and I'm all good to go now.   

Chris...

 

[Tony M]

I have a black cloud that follows me. so it comes with the territory

 

[honeydoman]

chris,

I would estimate 10,,000 saws were brought over here and sold and 35% have been returned I had heard.  this is only an estimate.  only festool can give the exact numbers.

I am sure that saws mfg lately will be corrected.  and should have no problems.  I know that around here one store sold 4 and all 4 were returned and a another store sold 3 and all 3 were returned.

so you figure out the numbers.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Chris,
Where did this statement come from?  I can't find it on the Festool Web site.
Matthew

 

[Steveo48]

I know that around here one store sold 4 and all 4 were returned and a another store sold 3 and all 3 were returned.

so you figure out the numbers.

4% failure rate?  That must be new math! ;D

 

[Dave Rudy]

4% failure rate?  That must be new math! ;D

(soapbox)
One of the major problems with internet forums in general is revealed in this and related topics.  It's a form of near-hysteria produced by rumor, inuendo and rampant speculation, often by people who have not the slightest basis for the speculation -- that is, who don't know or haven't even seen the saw, who lack adequate engineering background, etc.

Clearly, there was a problem with the saw.  Clearly, for the price and given the manufacturer and what we come to rely on in its technical engineering and quality control, this problem should not have occurred.

But if one analyzes this thread carefully, one will see that there are a handful of owners with problems, and a much greater number of pundits who seem to have nothing better to do than "pile on".  This of course creates the impression of a problem of much greater magnitude than appears to actually be the case.  Accusing Festool of being dishonest about the scope of the problem accomplishes nothing. If it was as large as speculated by some, Festool could simply have ommitted the 4% number.

Are the dealers deliberately understating the problem as well? 

http://www.festooljunkie.com/blog/festool-saw-reviews/the-kapex-miter-table-scraping-issue-addressed-by-festoolusa/

I got one of the first Kapex's delivered.  Worked fine out of the box.  Lasers needed no adjustment.  Cut is fantastic.  No problems with scraping noises or scoring.  (I haven't used the saw extensively yet).  I am comfortable enough with Festool and the way it stands behind product that if a problem develops, they will do their utmost to make it right.

Some were obviously not so fortunate -- some even experienced the problem twice.  If some of you want to wait for improvements in the design or manufacturing of the saw, that is your right.

But why go overboard trashing a product and impugning the integrity of a company that consistently delivers the highest level of customer service and knocks itself out to solve problems when they occur?

(off soapbox)

 

[vteknical]

4% failure rate?  That must be new math! ;D
[/quote]

Kapex math baby!  91.075% Dust Extraction  

 

[ccmviking]

    Actually they said 4% of their "inventory" not of total sold.  I guess what bothers me (besides the 2 failures) is that if this was really due to a change in manufacturing you'd have a group of serial numbers affected by the change.  It would be easy for them to know which saws were manufactured with the cam plates that were different (just like any mfg. recall out there).  I'm just a little surprised that they have to open all the boxes and take a feeler gauge to them all.  And if they are currently within spec. they get shipped without the cam plate being switched to the new and improved one.  So they just had the different plates (production change) mixed in with other plates.  Both of my saws that had failures were checked and worked fine out of the box.  I didn't have any issue with them until after using them for a while.  This is what causes alarm for me.  If it's truly an issue with the cam plate then why aren't they all just being changed?  I also feel that a lot of folks that purchased the saw have not really used it a lot yet to come across an issue.  I may be wrong but I just have a feeling that something else is amiss. 

    I have many Festool products and will own many more.  I also have a great deal of respect for Christian and his great team.  I don't think anyone here should be seen as Festool bashers, we are supporters/customers/dealers.  I'm sure Christian and other Festool folks are just as bummed about this issue as we are here.  I'm not mad about this whole experience and it doesn't change the way I feel about the company, it's dealer network, or future.  I'm disappointed...  I had really built myself up thinking this new saw was going to change the way I work and improve my work quality and speed.  I'm just realizing that it may not do that.  I don't care about the $1,300 cost or care if if was $2,000.  I wanted it to deliver on all the hype (maybe some of the hype was from me and created in my own head, but it's still hype).  I actually have a pro/cons list that the wife and I have been making as we have been using the saw.  Time to really evaluate and i've got some thinking to do today... 

Chris...         

 

[honeydoman]

i love festools and have almost all of their tools, containters, tables etc.  and will still buy more festools.  use them professionally all the time.  and when the revisions have been made I will obtain another kapex.  love the saw.

all festool has to do is solve the problem.  it does not matter to me how many have been returned or that are bad.  what ever it is it is.

I only care about the one that I got, and that it works correctly right out of the box and does the job that it is intended to do,.  when that happens I will be pleased.

major companies never let you know how big or how small the problem is, they just fix it and make it right. and keep on going.

festool is #1 in my book, and still is and still will be,. 

i can't wait for another kapex to hit my woodcraft that has been corrected and I can go and pick it up and use it everyday.

cutting wood is creating things is what I do and love.

 

[Steveo48]

4% failure rate?  That must be new math! ;D

(soapbox)
One of the major problems with internet forums in general is revealed in this and related topics.  It's a form of near-hysteria produced by rumor, inuendo and rampant speculation, often by people who have not the slightest basis for the speculation -- that is, who don't know or haven't even seen the saw, who lack adequate engineering background, etc.

.....But if one analyzes this thread carefully, one will see that there are a handful of owners with problems, and a much greater number of pundits who seem to have nothing better to do than "pile on". 
(off soapbox)

Hey thats me baby!  ;D  I'm a pile-oner.

You don't have to be an "injuneer" to figure out there's a problem (don't get me started on this topic) with this saw, and not a small one.  Rampant speculation?  Not likely.  When comments come from the likes of Jerry, Brice and other serious commercial craftsmen, not casual users or weekend warriors, making a conclusion from their comments can be pretty darn easy.

So, having never seen a kapex, I stopped by my local Rockler to take a look.  They had 2 in the box and one on display.  I looked at the display, saw some features I liked and then checked that troublesome table.  Wadda ya know, the damn thing scrapes almost like it's supposed to.  Gee, who knew! 

What the heck happened to inspector #12!  Maybe they should hire that old lady from the Haynes commercial to check the tables so "it doesn't say Festool until she says it says Festool".

We can speculate on the number of machines with problems out there... I'd say significant based on what I've read and my previous experience in manufacturing dealing with quality control and recalls.

One last thing, this comment really riles me.  ".....who lack adequate engineering background, etc."

I'm speaking as a man whose grown up in a family (3 generations) of carpenters and small construction company owners.  I have numerous in-laws who are architects, engineers, ME's EE's, AE's even a food engineer.  They will all tell you that they value the opinion of the craftsperson or end user over all other things.  Any engineer or manager who values his opinion over all others isn't worth the plastic in his pocket protector. 

Whoo!  I feel much better.

Steve
Pile-oner and official FOG Troll

 

[tallgrass]

speaking as an ME and having seen and used a saw with the problem in question, i have to admit without tearing it down to pieces, being given a spec sheets on the materials used, intended operating environment  and manufacturing strategies that were considered, i can not quantify the nature or scope of the short coming.Other than "IT" needs fixing". this is not an excuse for the engineers that were involved in the development of the the tool in question, but identifying the "the actual cause" sometimes is far more complex that just taking a look. A thorough understanding may require a better understanding of the differential expansion issues of the alloys in question. Maybe a revisit to the FEA models that were used or manufacturing QAQC,I hope that the problem was localized to a specific area to the design and not a fundamental design error. I will say that it is a let down to have seen such a problem from a company that i love. I would like to know what level of success that the "fix" is having. Has any kept track of the fix success?

 

[Steve Jones]

One does't like to cast aspersions on other members, especially those who try vainly to impress others with their extensive vocabulary, one also tends to dissaprove of those who presume on the lack of engineering degrees in others.

That's about all I can stand, back to English. we are presumably a bunch of opinionated carpenters who admire and appreciate quality (it's implied in the name of the forum) now if we could try to use plain English ('cause stretching your vocabulary grates on the ear somfink awful guvner, and it aint impressing anyone)

Tallgrass: my comment happens to be following yours but refers to a pompous twit earlier in this thread.

I may have reached an age where my speculation is not as rampant as it used to be, but it's still pretty darn effective.

Another of the major problems with internet forums is the overabundance of fatheads who gleefully fire off opinions without the least idea of what their talking about. (I try to limit my fatheaded contributions to areas in which I may contribute, but then at other times I just can't help poking fun at someone who really, really needs it).

 

[tallgrass]

i hope it does not come across that i was talking down to anyone. Being an ME and not a craftsman but one who l loves wood working, i find myself at a loss in the area of vocabulary in this forum, it seems all the time. i find myself looking up words all the time so i can keep up with all of you guys. I also do not what to imply that  the observations and deductions about the kapex are wrong. Indeed you all my be right. if i do spout any techo engineering babble let me know, it is not intentional but usually out of laziness as it is what comes out of my mouth at work.  it should be noted that it is easier to do the math and draw blueprints, than to build the real thing, as the machinists in the lab tell me all of the time, as they throw my amazing(in my own mind) non-buildable drawings back on my desk. When i see what has to be done to turn them into reality i have to agree.  So if anyone feels like throwing a wet sock at me from time to time please do so as i am the novice in your world.

 

[Brad Evans]

>>>  They will all tell you that they value the opinion of the craftsperson or end user over all other things.  Any engineer or manager who values his opinion over all others isn't worth the plastic in his pocket protector.

Totally agree.  And I'm an engineer!

The comment from another poster, relating that Festool said to go with a new plate instead of a new saw cuz "he told me I was better off with the repair because there was no guarantee that the new saw did not have the problem" is telling.

 

[Dave Rudy]

Hey thats me baby!  ;D  I'm a pile-oner.

Think you missed the point.  The point is -- where do you get off acting like an expert on a saw you didn't own and hadn't worked with?

And who are you to call Festool dishonest for saying 4%?  Opinions with no basis = prejudice.

Did you look at the link?  Is the dealer dishonest too?

Maybe, just maybe, these guys know more than you about how many saws were sold and how many complaints they actually got.  Rumor and your fertile imagination are not helpful.

 

[Hergy]

Brad said:

"The comment from another poster, relating that Festool said to go with a new plate instead of a new saw cuz "he told me I was better off with the repair because there was no guarantee that the new saw did not have the problem" is telling."

This is why my $1300 is still in my pocket. My local dealer has 1 (one only) Kapex, which also doubles as the demo unit. If I buy this and it craps out, I'm looking at at least a week before getting a replacement from my dealer. (This assumes they order it right away). My next nearest dealer is 50 miles away and I have better things to do than to play tag with the dealers waiting to get a saw that works. Serial #'s of corrected units would be very helpful (or dates of manufacture). All the raving about "Festool stepping up to the plate etc." is in my opinion, the least that they could and should be doing. A premium price should command and expect superior service. Pure and simple, this was a botched introduction that should not have happened. A Kapex purchase for me has been put on the back burner. I'm underwhelmed by Festool's handling of the problem.

I'm glad to hear that the "plate" seems to be working for some of you, but the official response does not identify the "plate" as the problem, but rather the clearance. I guess this is an indirect way of saying that if the "bad" plate is present, then the proper clearance cannot be obtained? I'm still trying to see how the saws worked for a while and then got progressively worse. A clearance of .008-.0016 (.2mm-.4mm) is pretty small tolerance. After the saw is bounced around a few times can this tolerance be maintained? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Spike]

Boy there are a lot of engineer's at FOG

 

[b_m_hart]

Boy there are a lot of engineer's at FOG

Nah, just people that rightfully expect perfection for a saw that costs two to five TIMES the competition.  It's a shame that folks have had to disassemble their saws and diagnose what was wrong with them, rather than being told by the manufacturer that there were some issues and a batch of saws was released into their distribution channels that were built out of spec.

 

[Steveo48]

Hey thats me baby!  ;D  I'm a pile-oner.

Think you missed the point.  The point is -- where do you get off acting like an expert on a saw you didn't own and hadn't worked with?

And who are you to call Festool dishonest for saying 4%?  Opinions with no basis = prejudice.

Did you look at the link?  Is the dealer dishonest too?

Maybe, just maybe, these guys know more than you about how many saws were sold and how many complaints they actually got.  Rumor and your fertile imagination are not helpful.

I never claimed to be an expert Dave.  I'm just using the information on this forum to make an opinion, after all, thats what it's for.  My opinion was formed based on the experiences and comments made by some serious crafts people who know their stuff.  Maybe their not metalurgists, but they don't have to be to know there is something wrong, or to identify the "what" portion of the problem.  We'll leave the "why" part to others.

Did I actually say they were dishonest?  Did you miss my big ol' smiley face trying to indicate humor and my old joke about new math?

I looked at the link but didn't bother to read the whole thing.  Are you insinuating that the dealers had something to do with this?  Those guys depend on their reputations and can't afford to knowingly pass along bad goods.  I seriously doubt that online dealers look into every box before it gets shipped.  I bet most of them never even see the box!

You're right, I'm not hovering over the phone tallying the number of calls coming in over this issue, but you never indicated you had that job either.  I'm using anectdotal evidence from this forum to make my decision.  I stopped by Rockler today and looked at a saw and got to touch it.  Dang if that one had the same problem too!  What are the chances of that happening if it's a small issue.   Then there's Festool announcing there is an issue, this seems to indicate that jeez, there really is something going on.

I may have a fertile mind but the problems with the kapex table are not rumor.