Finishing a walnut mantle/bookcase top with Target WB coatings

[Jim McFarland]

Patrick, thanks for sharing your experience with the Target WB coatings in this thread.

I started to post in that thread but really drifting off topic so starting this thread in case others can offer suggestions.

I'm asking for suggestions on finishing a walnut mantle/bookcase top which is already installed...some of the below seems a bit out of this context but it is a continuation of the earlier thread.

I'm trying a couple of finishing schedules with the satin SC9000 on a table saw miter sled I built this weekend.  Using walnut on a table saw jig is a bit over the top but I had some less than perfect cutoffs and wanted to test on something other than scrap.

For the top side, I'm going to spray 3 coats (2 shown) and then wipe-on a thinned coat of SC9000.

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I brushed the bottom of the sled using 90% SC9000 and 10% SA5 retarder with pretty good results. 

However, the mantle/bookcase is ~11' long and includes a face and return.  I'm hesitant to brush something this large even using the retarder.  I tried to brush on satin Minwax Polycrylic and was very unhappy with the finish -- the reason I'm experimenting with the Target products.  I don't get a lot of overspray with HVLP so I'll spray if I have to.  The project is in my son's home 700 miles away so I also want to minimize the # of tools I have to take to finish.  Here are a couple of pictures.

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[Jim McFarland]

Aaaarrrrggghhh!  Another (probably obvious) tip for those spraying SC9000.  Don't leave material in the cup/gun for the 2-3 hours between each coat.  Mine was clogged when I started the last coat.  Spraying some warm water through the gun cleared it just fine but should have avoided in the first place.  Another reason to get the mini-cup set!

 

[Overtime]

A couple questions:

The table saw sled - Did you wipe on or spray the SC9000 diluted as a sealer for the first step ? Did you seal it first ?
(Top side)              The two spray coats of SC9000 - I'm assuming full strength and it layed down well.
                            What is the reason for wiping on the top or finish coat rather then spray ? Was it a test to see what your
                            results of brushing would give ? 
                           
I have found that nothing I could do with a brush would even come close to the results of spraying built up layers and finishing with a final spray as the top coat.  This is under the assumption that the equipment is dialed in and proper atomization is achieved.    I only wipe on the seal coats - and finish by spraying.

The Mantle (beautiful) Are you going to take it back down to bare wood and remove the minwax ?

It looks like all you need is a little more plastic to mask off rest of the wall and partition the room and your set to spray away, once you get dialed in.

Most of my use of Target products has been with the WB shellac sealer and Ultima Spray Lacquer. These happen to be the least complicated of their line of finishes. I have used the SC9000 but only in an opaque application so I don't have more to offer as far as a clear coat. But it lays down fine. The two hour recoat is a drag. And I had the same clogged nozzle problem. I found that by hanging a very damp rag over the nozzle during the wait periods reduces the clogging. I recoat at 1hr 50 minutes if I can.

Perhaps the pros could chime in, but if not be sure to consult the Target Finisher's Forum for more info.

 

[Jim McFarland]

Patrick, thanks for the reply.  I misunderstood your earlier reply and thought you were wiping on the top coat.

All the brush/wipe-on tests were me trying to "swim upstream" to get a decent finish without spraying -- I'm giving up on this approach.

I sprayed the sled with 3 coats - full strength, no sealer.  I don't have the technique, sprayer and/or material right yet as I still get some bubbles and "lumps" of finish on occasion.  The vertical surfaces look great.  The defects are only on the horizontal surfaces.  I suspect poor technique (e.g., spraying too thick a coat).  All that said, the majority of the finish looks so much better with spraying that I'm finally convinced spraying is the way to go.  Who knows how much finish I'll have to go through but, hopefully, I'll eventually get there!

Regarding the Minwax on the mantle now: Yes, I am going to sand it back to bare wood and apply the SC9000.  I asked Homestead if I needed a seal coat as I'm sure I won't remove every speck of Minwax.  Their answer was no -- sand Minwax back to 600 and should be fine coating with SC9000.

Thanks for the tip regarding the wet rag.  Easy to change the mini-cups so I'll just spray a cup of warm water through the gun after each coat.

 

[Jim McFarland]

With all my discouraging testing with the SC9000 I am running low on product until UPS comes around next week.  I decided to experiment on the finished-to-a-fault table saw sled using some gloss Target USL I purchased for another project and -- wow -- what a difference.  The USL sprayed beautifully.  I did thoroughly clean the gun and tried to err on the side of too little spray rather than too much, but still amazed the USL laid down that much better than the SC9000.  Could be I got lucky on the gun setup after the cleaning or maybe gloss is easier to spray than satin.  Suppose now I'll need to order some of satin USL. 

This project is turning into a money pit.  I bought a Domino for this project when I planned to use walnut plywood for the top. I didn't like the look of the solid wood face and the plywood top so used solid walnut for the top instead (more $).  The Domino of course is what started me down the Festool slope (much more $).  Hopefully, the satin USL or my new setup with SC9000 will spray well and I don't have to upgrade to a 4 stage HVLP!  This DIY woodworking sure saves a lot of money!  ;D

 

[Overtime]

My fault - I forgot your original intent was not to spray.  But I am glad that you got some good results with the USL. I was going to ask what other Target products you might have. All my references about brushing and wiping were for the sealer process only.

      I'm going to outline a basic spray finish schedule that I use with consistant success.  And your Q3 should be just fine.
This is how I go about putting a (clear coat) finish - no stain but sometimes some color tone (by way of WB shellac sealer) to bring out the grain. 

      Your results with the USL shows that you are on the right track  8)  The SC900 should and will give the same results. Thinner spray coats rather than thicker, yes. Fluid motion across the material, keep spray tip about 8  - 10 inches away. Swing right then left - done. How slow or fast you make the swing = the thicker or thinner the coat.

                      Target products: Ultraseal WB shellac (Amber) and USL gloss and satin.  Fuji spray tip 1.4

    After sanding anywhere upwards of 320 and blowing dust off then wiping with a lightly damp cloth with a little denatured alcohol and water to "pick up the dust" wipe but don't saturate surface. This sets the stage for a sealer coat or two.

    Using the WB shellac full strength and a foam brush apply the shellac as uniformly as possible. It's very thin and wet, the wood will soak it up. Wipe it off within seconds. The rag will become saturated, no problem. When done let it dry for about an hour, or until dry.

    This may raise the grain and or leave a rough surface. Very, very lightly with 320 or so go over surface. Only to knock off nubbs.  This process can be repeated if needed. This is the seal coat, it will serve a couple of purposes. Creates a bonding barrier, fills pores, enhances grain. Clean off dust as before, damp cloth to pick up dust. "Diluted" denatured alcohol with water to dampen rag.

  The surface will look like junk at this stage, but it will be smooth. The clear coats that follow will bond and the surface will become clear. All marks and tiny uneven surface areas will (should) fill in and dissapear as the finish coats are applied.

"The above sealing process can be achieved by using a diluted form of USL, SC900 or whatever the coating is to be instead of WB shellac."  But it is better to have some type of sealer coat on before spraying the finish coats. (on most woods) 
 

    Set up some construction paper like 36" x 4-5'  Tape it up on the wall or somewhere near the spray area. This will be to tune the gun and spray pattern. Always have this test paper up and use it to spray on before each coat. A quick spray to confirm set up is good and nozzle is clear. Better to find out on the paper rather than the project.  :  This is test area. Get ready to spray.  ;D

Part two coming soon.

 

[Jim McFarland]

Wow!  Patrick, as usual, this is a really good tutorial.  I suggest you start a separate thread so future readers can find it more easily.  I'm not trying to run you off (especially since you're the only one who has replied  ), but information like this should be featured in its own thread.

Thanks again for your suggestions.  They have really helped.  I've had good results with traditional lacquer and HVLP but this is my first try  spraying water-based clear finishes.  I can actually spray the WB using a large drop cloth in my garage.  Spraying traditional lacquer meant spraying outside and required a moderate temperature, low humidity and windless day.  Such days are rare in Oklahoma!

 

[Overtime]

        We'll call this a micro turbo target tutorial. Because a proper tutorial requires dozens of Dan rated  photos. So that will have to wait a while.
http://www.targetcoatings.com/

    OK so we got a sealer on there. There will be a combination of scuffed and shiny surface appearance to the sealed project piece. Not to worry all will bond and become clear.

  I like to use the WB shellac amber or golden red. Order up a Quart of each to give them a try. Yes I know there is no end to the $lope    I'll use one or the other of these sealers on everything from maple to paduak, pine, lacewood, bubinga, walnut. The WB shellac sealer will bring life to the wood. Unlike a stain these give a natural color tone to the wood.
  If only a natural clear finish is desired then make your sealer with some USL gloss by thinning with water.

            Using USL - Ultima Spray Lacquer is a great product in itself. But also for the novice to water borne finish, this will give you professional results with a very short learning curve. This learning curve is a perfect intro to the rest of the Target products.

  We will build up multiple coats of gloss and top off with a final coat of satin. I was told that using all the gloss for the build up layers will minimize muting the grain. ?  90% of the time I finish with satin as the final coat for most projects. I have built up layers of satin and finished with satin and I think doing gloss as the undercoats is a tad better.

  Stir the USL gloss,  looks like 2% milk but a little thicker. Load up the gun and test on the paper. Spray the paper right- left stop. See what you got. Dial things in till you get that magic atomized spray. No drips or runs, not too wet not too dry. It sticks and you can see it.
Perfect. Once you get control of the spray the rest is easy  ;D

  Lay down your first coat.  Hang the gun up and drape a very damp rag over the nozzle of the gun. USL can be re coated quickly. No need at all to clean or remove USL from gun. Leave it in the gun during the entire process, it wont clog.    Get some paper and start a log- First coat - 12:33 am.

  Don't mess with the project piece, wait at least 30 minutes before you check if dry. At 45 minutes it should be plenty ready to recoat. No sanding unless there was a mishap  :'(  This product will burn in to each subsequent coat including the sealer and become one. There is no need to sand between coats for bonding. Very light sanding only if nubs or such. 320 or so and the marks will not be a problem.
  second coat 1:15 am, 3rd, 4th 5th 6th 7th - 5am

During the spray process look for and remove any dust specs or foreign flying objects (only when dry, they will come right off) So they don't get re coated. Resist the temptation to correct or alter anything when wet. Its much better to let dry and correct problems by light sanding. The sanding marks will become invisible when re coated.

That will do. Change out the gloss to satin and lay down two more coats 5:45 - 6:30 time to clean up and make some eggs.

  I average about 7 to 11 coats when using USL not including the sealer. With woods that have deep pores I have used the High solids Grain filler clear ( kinda like a thick USL) this is done after the seal coat if needed.

  Other related stuff ;  some of these waterborne products can produce rust around the rim of the can at the lid. Keep the rim clean as you can. If you do get some particles in the can it can be easily run through a mesh screen. Aged product can create globules of gel like goo, stir then run it thru the mesh to screen. If you buy by the gallon, get a bunch of fresh quart cans and disperse.

  I hope you get great results and for more info be sure to check the Target forum.

http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/

 

[Jim McFarland]

Pictures or not, still really good information.

I think my poor results with the SC9000 were because I had the fluid adjustment cranked down too low.  I lucked on to a better setting after the strip down cleaning between the SC9000 and USL tests.  It will be a couple of days before I can confirm but I don't want to give SC9000 a bad rap because of my stupid mistake.

Feel like the guy in the joke about taking his chain saw in for repair because it wasn't cutting very well.  The repair tech starts the saw and the owner says "What's that noise?"

 

[Corwin]

Wow!  Great tutorial!  Definitely another 'two thumbs up' piece -- four if you have a helper. 

 

[Jim McFarland]

To close this one...

At long last, I filled in my "money pit" project this past week.  I sanded the earlier brushed Polycrylic back to 220, filled with Target Clear WB Grain Filler and sprayed (Fuji Q3) 3 coats of the same Minwax Satin Polycrylic I had earlier brushed.  "Customer" (my son) is happy so I am, too.  I think the satin Target SC9000 would have been fine, but my son liked the look of the Minwax on the samples and I didn't want to risk another rework of this project.  The 4th and 5th photos of the bottom of the front return shows one of the half butterfly inlays.  These inlays cover screw slot channels/screws I used to secure the piece but still allow wood movement.  I fixed the top back with counterbored (used LR32 -- very clean counterbores) screws and plugs.  The final photo illustrates the primary reason I bought the C12 (right angle chuck).