Finishing furniture help

[Bhend18]

I am going to be building a crib. I want suggestions on wood species and finish. I do not want the grain look of oak. I want to finish with a dark finish but not black. I have had trouble getting a dark finish on maple. I have a Fuji HVLP but I am not proficient. I would prefer a wipe on or brush stain and clear coat. Obviously I'm looking for a finish that would be child friendly and durable. I am a beginner when it comes to finishing so no detail is too small. Thanks in advance.

 

[Scott B.]

I am going to be building a crib. I want suggestions on wood species and finish. I do not want the grain look of oak. I want to finish with a dark finish but not black. I have had trouble getting a dark finish on maple. I have a Fuji HVLP but I am not proficient. I would prefer a wipe on or brush stain and clear coat. Obviously I'm looking for a finish that would be child friendly and durable. I am a beginner when it comes to finishing so no detail is too small. Thanks in advance.

Ideal species would be cherry. You could do a waterborne dye stain by brush, then hvlp spray with a waterborne clear. If this is an option, let me know and I would be happy to help you through finish sequencing.

 

[Bhend18]

I did consider cherry and that would be fine. I am definitely open to this finish approach.

 

[mouppe]

Perhaps birch would be a good choice? Or walnut?

I got an excellent result on oak using a dark water-based dye (2 coats and sanded after raising the grain) followed by a dark walnut (oil-based gel stain (1 coat). Both finishes were applied with rags.

It was very easy and very forgiving, and looks good.

If you want to hide the grain, perhaps painting it would be more suitable?

 

[Bhend18]

Perhaps birch would be a good choice? Or walnut?

I got an excellent result on oak using a dark water-based dye (2 coats and sanded after raising the grain) followed by a dark walnut (oil-based gel stain (1 coat). Both finishes were applied with rags.

It was very easy and very forgiving, and looks good.

If you want to hide the grain, perhaps painting it would be more suitable?

I don't want to paint it. I want the grain to show, just not as much as you get from oak.

 

[Bill A]

Be careful with walnut. It has some chemical characteristics that can cause allergic reactions in some people. I agree with using aniline dyes. They work well and you can mix them to about any color you can dream up. I like water based polyurethane for the finishes. The bad stuff cooks off during the cure, but if you are concerned about it, I suggest oils like mineral oil, or Bush Oil as another option. Bush Oil looks really good on Cherry. You can get it on line.

 

[Bhend18]

Be careful with walnut. It has some chemical characteristics that can cause allergic reactions in some people. I agree with using aniline dyes. They work well and you can mix them to about any color you can dream up. I like water based polyurethane for the finishes. The bad stuff cooks off during the cure, but if you are concerned about it, I suggest oils like mineral oil, or Bush Oil as another option. Bush Oil looks really good on Cherry. You can get it on line.

I think cherry will definitely be the species. Will the bush oil work well on the cherry even if I use a dye stain first?

 

[nclemmons]

The only thing to be mindful of with maple, cherry, birch etc when you are going with a dark stain is blotching.

You may want to use some kind of a blotch control.  Scott sounds like he's willing to provide advice, but that has always been my biggest issue with using those woods with dark stain - not unlike what you see with trying to stain pine.

There is a finishing website that I have used - Charles Neil Woodworking -  that covers this in a fair amount of detail.  I purchased his DVD's and have used his blotch control product. 

You can use some of the dies via spray application.  It just takes practice and patience from my experience.  Lean on Scott!

Neil

 

[Bhend18]

The only thing to be mindful of with maple, cherry, birch etc when you are going with a dark stain is blotching.

You may want to use some kind of a blotch control.  Scott sounds like he's willing to provide advice, but that has always been my biggest issue with using those woods with dark stain - not unlike what you see with trying to stain pine.

There is a finishing website that I have used - Charles Neil Woodworking -  that covers this in a fair amount of detail.  I purchased his DVD's and have used his blotch control product. 

You can use some of the dies via spray application.  It just takes practice and patience from my experience.  Lean on Scott!

Neil

I have had blotching issues on maple. I've used Minwax conditioner with some success but I'm open to trying others. I don't use Minwax stains anymore because I have found better products.

 

[Scott B.]

The only thing to be mindful of with maple, cherry, birch etc when you are going with a dark stain is blotching.

You may want to use some kind of a blotch control.  Scott sounds like he's willing to provide advice, but that has always been my biggest issue with using those woods with dark stain - not unlike what you see with trying to stain pine.

There is a finishing website that I have used - Charles Neil Woodworking -  that covers this in a fair amount of detail.  I purchased his DVD's and have used his blotch control product.  

You can use some of the dies via spray application.  It just takes practice and patience from my experience.  Lean on Scott!

Neil

I have had blotching issues on maple. I've used Minwax conditioner with some success but I'm open to trying others. I don't use Minwax stains anymore because I have found better products.

I usually have better luck with staining cherry dark than birch or maple.

One thing to keep in mind is that these are fairly advanced finishes, from a straight up painting and finishing standpoint. Not the easiest stuff, especially on your first run, and I never forget my firsts with any finish system.

Its an area that is sorely lacking, and becoming more and more apparent that people need help with these things. I have seen most of what is online about finishing, and it makes me queesy to see people speaking from positions of expertise in other fields, doing "how to" videos on finishing that are (to a professional finisher) either dreadfully outdated or just plain wrong. There is so much misinformation going out this way, and finishing is one of the more confusing disciplines to begin with. So, I am always happy to help.

The thing people don't understand about finishing is that there is no "one size fits all". People ask me all the time: "what psi should I be running my hvlp at?" Or "what Ford cup viscosity for stain?"

If I could make one thing clear to the world about finishing, it would be that it is different every time. Driven by substrate, which leads to product, which leads to process. And process alone changes every single time (even if the first to are the same twice in a row) by climate conditions alone. There is alot that goes into getting it just right, and especially in just one run through the process. Any backwards motion, like going back to sand a section and redo it, changes everything that will happen there after.

But, back to this situation, if you go cherry (which I would), the way around blotchiness with cherry is to sand to the proper grit prior to stain application. That will depend on the specific pieces of cherry you select to work with, and their grain patterns. This is where most people blow finish right out of the gate.

Evidently, there are videos (and I have seen some myself just lately) where that concept is a complete and utter boondoggle.

Yes, absolutely, get some cherry, get milling, post up the stock, save your drops, and we can hit a homerun. Stained cherry with clear is one of favorite finishes. I think I have posted about 100 times now that bar I did that time.  [big grin]

 

[rnt80]

I've used the blotch control product offered by Charles Neil and it worked well.  It is, however, a four step process - apply,sand, apply, sand.  On larger projects I found it to be impractical.  I just started spraying Target's sanding sealer (not diluted) and have been pleased with the results.  This last project was with alder and it will blotch just as bad as cherry.  The sealer performed well on both the ply and solid stock.  I lightly sanded with 360 and then wiped on SW bag stain.
I'll certainly defer to Scott in all things related to finishing.  Whatever you do you need to make samples following the exact process you will be using for the actual project.

 

[Scott B.]

I've used the blotch control product offered by Charles Neil and it worked well.  It is, however, a four step process - apply,sand, apply, sand.  On larger projects I found it to be impractical.  I just started spraying Target's sanding sealer (not diluted) and have been pleased with the results.  This last project was with alder and it will blotch just as bad as cherry.  The sealer performed well on both the ply and solid stock.  I lightly sanded with 360 and then wiped on SW bag stain.
I'll certainly defer to Scott in all things related to finishing.  Whatever you do you need to make samples following the exact process you will be using for the actual project.

When push comes to shove, you do whatever you can get to work!  [huh]

You raise a good point, and this is where things start to go more advanced...and its funny because I have explained this to alot of people and its either a lightbulb eureka moment, or they kind of glaze over.

The use of sanding sealer...can be either under your stain or over it (or both), depending on the situation. For the purposes of this discussion, where blotch control in cherry is a concern, we can't put it under, or if we do, we can't use dye stain anymore (dye doesnt go that way). So we would have to change stains.

But yes, I was taught this technique by one of my cabinet finish mentors, a local guru in fact, and he calls it "overstaining". There are a couple of different clears that work really well as that base coat.

 

[tiralie]

But yes, I was taught this technique by one of my cabinet finish mentors, a local guru in fact, and he calls it "overstaining".

Do you mean glazing or toning?
Tim

 

[tiralie]

I lightly sanded with 360 and then wiped on SW bag stain.

What is "bag stain"?

Whatever you do you need to make samples following the exact process you will be using for the actual project.

Make sure it is large enough sample or step panel that allows you to see how the finish looks on larger areas.
Tim

 

[Bhend18]

I've used the blotch control product offered by Charles Neil and it worked well.  It is, however, a four step process - apply,sand, apply, sand.  On larger projects I found it to be impractical.  I just started spraying Target's sanding sealer (not diluted) and have been pleased with the results.  This last project was with alder and it will blotch just as bad as cherry.  The sealer performed well on both the ply and solid stock.  I lightly sanded with 360 and then wiped on SW bag stain.
I'll certainly defer to Scott in all things related to finishing.  Whatever you do you need to make samples following the exact process you will be using for the actual project.

When push comes to shove, you do whatever you can get to work!  [huh]

You raise a good point, and this is where things start to go more advanced...and its funny because I have explained this to alot of people and its either a lightbulb eureka moment, or they kind of glaze over.

The use of sanding sealer...can be either under your stain or over it (or both), depending on the situation. For the purposes of this discussion, where blotch control in cherry is a concern, we can't put it under, or if we do, we can't use dye stain anymore (dye doesnt go that way). So we would have to change stains.

But yes, I was taught this technique by one of my cabinet finish mentors, a local guru in fact, and he calls it "overstaining". There are a couple of different clears that work really well as that base coat.

So, in your opinion, would it be better to use sanding sealer first and then use a different stain or use a conditioner and the dye stain? From this point forward I will be using cherry.

 

[rnt80]

Sorry, Tim.  It should be bac,  not bag.

I lightly sanded with 360 and then wiped on SW bag stain.

What is "bag stain"?

Whatever you do you need to make samples following the exact process you will be using for the actual project.

Make sure it is large enough sample or step panel that allows you to see how the finish looks on larger areas.
Tim

 

[Scott B.]

I've used the blotch control product offered by Charles Neil and it worked well.  It is, however, a four step process - apply,sand, apply, sand.  On larger projects I found it to be impractical.  I just started spraying Target's sanding sealer (not diluted) and have been pleased with the results.  This last project was with alder and it will blotch just as bad as cherry.  The sealer performed well on both the ply and solid stock.  I lightly sanded with 360 and then wiped on SW bag stain.
I'll certainly defer to Scott in all things related to finishing.  Whatever you do you need to make samples following the exact process you will be using for the actual project.

When push comes to shove, you do whatever you can get to work!  [huh]

You raise a good point, and this is where things start to go more advanced...and its funny because I have explained this to alot of people and its either a lightbulb eureka moment, or they kind of glaze over.

The use of sanding sealer...can be either under your stain or over it (or both), depending on the situation. For the purposes of this discussion, where blotch control in cherry is a concern, we can't put it under, or if we do, we can't use dye stain anymore (dye doesnt go that way). So we would have to change stains.

But yes, I was taught this technique by one of my cabinet finish mentors, a local guru in fact, and he calls it "overstaining". There are a couple of different clears that work really well as that base coat.

So, in your opinion, would it be better to use sanding sealer first and then use a different stain or use a conditioner and the dye stain? From this point forward I will be using cherry.

Not a fan of conditioner at all. I would not do that. Its kind of diy, imo.

I would like to see the details of the piece. That is a good way to choose product and process.

Do you have a picture of a similar piece, or actual plans?

Options for application of stain and clear are going to end up being some combo of wiping, spraying, brushing. Sometimes looking at the details eliminates something.

 

[Scott B.]

But yes, I was taught this technique by one of my cabinet finish mentors, a local guru in fact, and he calls it "overstaining".

Do you mean glazing or toning?
Tim

I definitely wouldn't call it glazing, that is a term that we only use in faux finishing.

I don't think I would call it toning, but its a similar effect. I was taught that toning is the process of adding color (dye or pigment) to a clear.

It may be semantics, but the "overstaining" I am referring to is to add a base coat of clear as the initial coat. It can be sanding sealer, or hard oil. Preferably fast drying. Then sand it smooth and use a wiping stain over it. Only a wiping stain works here, as the wood is sealed by the base coat. Then, depending on what the stain is (its usually oil) you proceed with the finish schedule, which for us will sometimes include another couple of rounds of sanding sealer or hard oil prior to clear application.

That is part of the fun and the challenge of stain grade. You can build 6 coat systems that are stunning, and there is more craft and finesse to it than most of the paint grade world.

 

[tjbnwi]

If you are using cherry, put a sanded piece out in the sun for a day, see if it darkens enough for your taste. (I prefer the color/look of cherry without any colorant, just a clear finish)

Tom

 

[peter halle]

If you are using cherry, put a sanded piece out in the sun for a day, see if it darkens enough for your taste. (I prefer the color/look of cherry without any colorant, just a clear finish)

Tom

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