First Festools--is this a good choice?

[johnbro]

Howdy,

I'm a Festool newbie/WW newbie. Am currently replacing a bunch of old tools with new tools--have so far a good TS, jointer, planer, and BS, so preparing rough stock is taken care of. Hanging out at Woodcraft I've fallen in love with Festool, been lurking on this forum and others trying to learn. Two biggest itches that it seems the Festool system will take care of are cutting plywood conveniently, safely, and accurately and dust-free sanding. Secondary is cross-cutting long/wide boards (I have a short fence on the TS) and joining. I really really like the Domino, but the cost probably means I'll have to wait awhile. I currently do not have a SCMS, but am pondering getting on for cutting down boards and trim. I don't have an assy table and haven't yet built a outfeed table for the TS. So here's what I'm looking at and some questions for you more experienced gurus:

tS55 saw + MFT 1080 combo
RO 125 FEQ + CT22 combo
75" rail (1900)
Guide rail accessory kit
2 quick clamps

Altogether that's almost $2k worth of stuff (gulp!). Questions:

1. Will the saw/mft combo replace the SCMS for crosscutting and precision miter stuff?

2. Is it too much hassle compared to having a MS station ready to go all the time?

3. Will the MFT do double duty as an outfeed table or should I make one of those separately? (Note: my garage/shop is big at 24x35, but the long side has two posts at 12' intervals down the middle holding up the center beam. Positioning a large TS system around those posts and still being able to promise LOML that she'll be able to get the car in with a straight face is tough.)

4. Will I be happy with the smaller sander or should I go with the 150? Woodcraft let me briefly try both and the 150 felt like quite a handful. Since I have a planer it seems like I won't be sanding un-surfaced stock and the 125 should be adequate? My other sanders are a Rigid ROS and a Fein Multimaster (without DC).

5. What am I missing? Sure, there's the boom (gasp!...seems like a bungie hanging from the ceiling might work almost as well for a lot less $) and the Domino (Santa? You there?) The router: I don't have a router table or a "real" router yet--I haven't found much about using the Festool router in a table--is this really the way to go or should I opt for a Triton or PC or some other solution for a RT? Rip blade? Why wouldn't I do all my non-plywood ripping on my TS? I'm working in my shop, not on-site (although when I re-trim the house I might set up in each room, the DC on the Festools seems that good--save a lot of walking back and forth from my detached garage)

6. Should I do it? (Guess that's like asking a drunk if I should have another drink...) ;D

All help appreciated. This weekend the local Woodcraft has their big Demo Day tent thingie with reps and demos and stuff. I'd like to get my plan together to go down and really try out the stuff I'm interested in.

John

 

[cparson]

4. Will I be happy with the smaller sander or should I go with the 150? Woodcraft let me briefly try both and the 150 felt like quite a handful. Since I have a planer it seems like I won't be sanding un-surfaced stock and the 125 should be adequate? My other sanders are a Rigid ROS and a Fein Multimaster (without DC).

I agonized over the sander decision for a while, and ended up going with an ETS 150/3 instead of the Rotex.  I've been very happy with that decision.  It seems to take off plenty of material, so I don't think I would have ever ended up using the rotary mode.  Definitely glad to have the higher surface area with the 6" pad as well.  And it's very smooth in operation...  it's much more comfortable to me, I couldn't get a very comfortable grip on the Rotex.

Whichever way you go, the dust collection on the sanders is nothing short of amazing. 

-chris

 

[Dan Clermont]

Welcome John,

Sounds like your about to dive in head first. Good on ya.

Here is my opinion from my experiences:

- the MFT and TS 55 will not be as convenient as a SCMS. I had my first experience with this a couple of weeks back and found it was possible to cut moldings on the MFT using the TS 55 but not as convenient as my miter saw. You might want to put some money aside for the KAPEX coming out in 6 months or so

- The Rotex RO 125 vs the RO 150 was a decision I had to make as well. I really wanted the bumper guard and the RO 150 came with it whereas the RO 125 required a new housing plus the bumper guard making the price difference  very minute so I went with the RO 150 and have been very happy. The RO 150 also has a removeable dust port which would be great for polishing in tight corners. Whichever you buy you'll probably want the ETS 150 or ETS 125 later on so pick either a 5" or 6" and stick with it.

- The MFT would make a decent outfeed table but you are going to be removing the fence or find it to be an obstruction. Also don't know if I would want to route miter slots on the MFT either

I think you are on the right track. I'd also consider the OF 1400 which works great with the guide rails.

Dan Clermont

 

[bruegf]

With the exception of the longer rail, that's exactly what I ended up for my first two festool purchases.  I too considered the TS75 and RO150 over the TS55 and RO125, but went with the 55 and 125 and have not regretted it.  I've used the RO125 in rotary mode more times than I expected so I'm glad I went with it instead of ROS only sander.  I've spent a number of hours sanding my bathroom ceiling which really made me happy that I didn't go with the RO 150.  I'm planning on buying an 8' rail at some point in the near future so I don't need to mess around with assembly and alignment when cutting 4x8 sheets down to size.

Next you'll need a Domino!

Fred

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I think you have a good list for your first purchases of Festool products.  BEWARE THE SLIPPERY SLOPE, WHICH GETS MORE SLIPPERY AS YOU GO!

I chose the RO 125, but that was back before the RO 150 was upgraded, and because I planned to use it a lot for vertical and overhead work in restoring an old house.  I also have a Deltex 93 and an LS 130.  Despite the fact that different abrasive supplies would be needed, I may get a 150/3 for finish sanding, simply because it is reputed to be more stable in use, to more easily produce a flat finish and obviously covers a lot more surface area than a 125 unit in the same time.

I strongly agree with those who recommend getting a long guide rail if you can afford it and plan to do much cutting of sheet goods.  Before that, you have wisely selected a 75 inch extra guide rail which will save you having to join rails as often as I do.

You did not mention what dust collection capabilities exist in your present shop.  If you don't already have something, I strongly recommend your purchase of the CT 22 be earlier rather than later. 

Festool's current range of routers in USA does not include any unit truly suited for inverted use in a table.  The 1010 and 1400 are great hand-held routers, but not at all convenient to adjust if inverted in a table.  I note that the 1400 (which I have) has a couple of extra 6mm threaded screw holes in its base that could be used to easily mount the router to a router table insert, and with that assembly you could pull the whole thing out of the table or lock the plate into the table to help with adjustment of the bit projection.  But instead of using my 1400 in a table, I chose as a low-cost alternative Freud's 13A unit.  But if you are planning to make a lot of molding or raised panel doors, PC's 7518 or Milwaukee's "big boy" are recommended., because they are of much heavier duty rating and weight.  A PC 7518 is on my wish list, and seems to be the standard unit for which most of the router lifts are designed.  If you are not comtemplating much use of your table router, then the Triton seems to be a very good choice, one I probably would have purchased instead of the Freud had I known of it.

Dave R.

 

[Lou Miller]

1. Will the saw/mft combo replace the SCMS for crosscutting and precision miter stuff?

Not IMO it won't. The MFT is great for 90 degree crosscuts, but it isn't very good at all if you have to constantly change the angle settings. The saw will do everything you want it to do and then some, but the MFT is only so-so at best for mitering.

4. Will I be happy with the smaller sander or should I go with the 150? Woodcraft let me briefly try both and the 150 felt like quite a handful. Since I have a planer it seems like I won't be sanding un-surfaced stock and the 125 should be adequate? My other sanders are a Rigid ROS and a Fein Multimaster (without DC).

I'd rethink the sander decision. I'm amazed at how many people opt for the Rotex sanders when they really don't need that much sander. For ordinary sanding tasks, I don't like the rotex at all. Its a great sander whenever you need to do any type of heavy sanding, but for normal use, I think the ETS sanders are the much better way to go. I probably use my ETS 150/3 around 100 times more than I do my RO150. I'm glad I have the rotex because I use it for certain tasks, but for general sanding only, I wouldn't buy it again.

I know the 75" rail is a very popular choice around these parts, but I see no practical use for it really. I have 2-55" rails, 2-42" rails and a 32" rail and use them everyday. Those along with connectors to join more than one together are all that I use. The 55" rail crosscuts a 48" sheet with ease, so I don't see why so many want the 75". I can only guess that people feel they need more rail at the start and end of each cut, but its not needed. I've probably crosscut close to a thousand 48" sheets (49" sheets too...MDF and Melamine) with a 55" rail and have yet to feel the need for a longer rail.

IMO, the guide rail accesory kit was a waste of money. The angle unit isn't made all that well, and its a PITA to use. I still have the rubber strips for the guide rails that came with my accesory kit. I'm sure I'll use them someday, but its been close to 2 years of daily use with my saw now and its still going to be quite a while until I need to replace the rubber on my rails. If I had to do it all over again, I'd just buy the connectors and the clamps by themselves and be done with it.

Take the extra money from downgrading on the sander, the 75" rail, and the accesory kit and put it towards a Domino. You'll get way more bang for your buck that way. Just my opinion...

 

[CharlesWilson]

I have to agree with what Lou is saying. Now that I have the ES sander, my RO sees much less action.

I still find myself using my table saw when it makes the most sense. Right now I have it set up for doing box joints, so the TS75 will be doing all of the ripping and crosscuts until I am finished with those box joints.  I really like the TS75 for edge jointing those really ragged boards.

My next project will use the Domino in some untraditional ways (I will be using Dominos as shelf pins, and have the bottom of my shelves with open slots to rest on them).

I also implemented Jerry Work's horizontal routing setup with my OF1400, so it will now be used for making the male sliding dovetails instead of my dinky router table.

 

[Brice Burrell]

.........I really wanted the bumper guard and the RO 150 came with it whereas the RO 125 required a new housing plus the bumper guard making the price difference  very minute so I went with the RO 150 and have been very happy.......

The Rotex 125 model being sold now comes with the bumper guard, no need to buy a new housing.

 

[Greg Pavlov]

If you buy the saw and the MFT table combo, you will end up with a short guide on the table and a relatively short floating guide.  If you're going to be cutting panels, etc, you might consider "upgrading" the guide that comes with the saw for one of the longer ones by paying the difference in list price (the one that comes with the saw lists at $82).

I bought the half-sheet sander and the 150/3.  I considered the Rotex instead of one of them, but then decided that I would get much more use out of the other two, at least for now.

 

[Hotwheels]

I am not experienced at any of this woodworking stuff nor the use of tools, but I have been down the path you are on and here is my experience or response to your questions:

1 Will the saw/mft combo replace the SCMS for crosscutting and precision miter stuff?My experience is that the MFT/Saw combo is great for 90 degree cross cuts, but I can be more accurate more quickly with a SCMS. However, the SCMS dust problem is major for me, so I plan to sell my Makita 1013 when Kapex gets here.

2. Is it too much hassle compared to having a MS station ready to go all the time?

I like using the MFT/Saw for cross cuts more than the table saw or the miter saw for some applications. The biggest issue for me is the measure and mark part of cross cutting, but there are solutions to that.

3. Will the MFT do double duty as an out feed table or should I make one of those separately? (Note: my garage/shop is big at 24x35, but the long side has two posts at 12' intervals down the middle holding up the center beam. Positioning a large TS system around those posts and still being able to promise LOML that she'll be able to get the car in with a straight face is tough.)

I first had one MFT and used it sometimes as an out feed table, but then I put two MFTs together and this works very well for me as my main work surface in a 22x22 garage space.

4. Will I be happy with the smaller sander or should I go with the 150? Woodcraft let me briefly try both and the 150 felt like quite a handful. Since I have a planer it seems like I won't be sanding un-surfaced stock and the 125 should be adequate? My other sanders are a Rigid ROS and a Fein Multimaster (without DC).

I bought a RO 125 because I thought the RO 150 was too awkward. I then bought an ETS 150. I think the ETS 150 is a great all around Festool sander and I could not imagine being without it now. I use the 125 for special occasions, but if I had to have only one Festool sander it would be the ETS 150.

5. What am I missing? Sure, there's the boom (gasp!...seems like a bungie hanging from the ceiling might work almost as well for a lot less $) and the Domino (Santa? You there?) The router: I don't have a router table or a "real" router yet--I haven't found much about using the Festool router in a table--is this really the way to go or should I opt for a Triton or PC or some other solution for a RT? Rip blade? Why wouldn't I do all my non-plywood ripping on my TS? I'm working in my shop, not on-site (although when I re-trim the house I might set up in each room, the DC on the Festools seems that good--save a lot of walking back and forth from my detached garage)

There is a learning curve with Festools in order to maximize their potential. You have plenty on your plate to start with those tools.

6. Should I do it? (Guess that's like asking a drunk if I should have another drink...) Grin

Yes you should. It makes life easier and that is what tools should do.

 

[Randy D]

I just jumped in head first a couple of months ago....i couldnt help myself. I was at the AWFS in vegas, and seeing all those bright shiney tools,  I caved. And I am so glad I did!!! This is what I bought...1. ts55 saw2.CT33 vac3. handle and boom arm, 4.ETS150/3 sander, 5. extra52" guiderail,6.several grits in the 100pack sandpaper7. 2 quickclamps 8. guiderail joiners.9. extra vac bags. Of all this the only thing I regret was not buying the guide rail for 8' sheet materail. I just dont like having to join the 2 52" rails. I dont trust them to be perfectly straight, and they always snag my saw when traveling by the seam. Everything else is way more than expected...and I was expecting alot. I'd recommend the 150/3 sander for the first one....there will be more ;D The boom arm is very handy, just roll it where needed and go....no messing with anything...its ready
One thing a SCMS has over alot of different saws is the ability to cut crown molding as it will fit to the wall. (propped up against the fence at its built in bevels.....

 

[Dave Rudy]

You will never regret the ts-55 or the mft whether they replace a scms or not (not, in my opinion).  You will be amazed at the saw and guide rail system, and not just for cutting plywood.  (The finish is so smooth I now use the TS55 instead of my powermatic jointer on many occasions).

As far as the sander is concerned, I agree with a number of observations already made.  I have the ETS 150, the RO 150, the LS 130 and the Deltex.  The far far away winner is the ETS 150.  I would start with that sander (which means standardize on 6" vs 5" disc so if and when you decide to go with an RO, get the 150 not the 125).  Guarantee you will not be disappointed. 

I disagree with Lou on the long rail.  I spent several years putting shorter rails together and finally bought a long rail this year -- sorry I waited so long.

Instead of packaged kits (which usually do not represent a significant discount), only get the accessories you need.  By all means put the savings toward a Domino!!

Welcome to the forum. 

p.s.  (all the tools we are speaking about, except for the --pex, are available in North America)

 

[semenza]

Hi,

   TS55 , Absolutely

   MFT, No doubt about its usefulness. I don't have one yet, but plan to get one. For sheet goods though I really like having a large cutting table for that purpose. I just built a new one that I wil be posting details on soon.

   CT22 or CT33 , A must have.

   75" rail.  You will find a lot of opinions on rail length and some of this depends on how the person is set up to work. I have the 1400, 1900, and 3000. Though the 1400 (55") will do 48" cuts I find it much easier with a 75" especially if you want to support the ends of the rail with same thickness pieces. I also like having the extra length when making wide angled cuts. I use the 1400 as well on shorter stuff just because it is handy. And for 8' cuts you can't beat having the 2700 or 3000.  Yes, joining the rails works and is a good way to go at the start in order to cut cost, but down the road I highly recomend the 2700 or 3000. I often find myself switching between wanting to do long cuts and shorter ones then back again.  Personally I find it a real pain putting the rails together then apart then back together. I like to put down the sort one and pick up the long one.

    ROTEX. I don't have and it is apparently a great sander. I can't speak to the size. Certainly all purpose. But if you are doing mostly finish sanding the ETSs  are the way to go. You mentioned that you already have an ROS. So maybe the ROTEX would be a wise choice for you.  I have an ETS150/5. I bought the /5 over the /3 because I thought the more aggresive stroke would be better for all around finishing use. I like a lot. Unbelievable how much better it is than the PC it replaced!  It will give a very fine finish, and with the right abrasive can remove an impressive amount of material.  And talk about a smooth running tool.

   TS55 + MFT vs miter saw.  Though the Festool combo will do the task, I think you will want the miter saw at some point.

    Quick Clamps. Love em.  Well worth the price over the screw type. I have used both  a lot and will go for the Quick Clamps every time.

    Accessory kit. I would just get the items you want separately.- I think the MFT comes with a deflector.  So just the connectors really.

     OF1400. Is a great hand held router.  But I would go with something else for table use.

Seth

 

[Lou Miller]

I disagree with Lou on the long rail.  I spent several years putting shorter rails together and finally bought a long rail this year -- sorry I waited so long.

Dave, I'm just curious, what length of rail did you actually get? Was it the 75" or something longer?

Just a little clarification on my part. I'm not against longer rails. If I was only working in my shop with the rails, I'd have a 118" and a 197" rail. I say no to a 75" over a 55". I just don't see enough benefit to it for it to be worth another $63. Since I work with my TS saw far more on sites than I ever do in my shop (I'm still a tablesaw diehard when it comes to working in the shop), anything longer than the 55" is very difficult for me to transport safely. The 55" rails (along with all the others and the case I made for them) fit very nicely in the back seat of my truck. A 75" wouldn't and it would have to be flopping around in the bed of my pickup. If you want a long rail, than the 106" is the shortest I'd buy. The 75" and the 95" don't offer enough bang for my buck. I guess it comes down to how one works, but I find that I don't have two rails joined together all that often. I try to make all of my crosscuts first. Usually, when I need to join two rails is when I'm working on tall casework or built-ins.

 

[Eli]

All good suggestions. I don't have the ROS, but the Rotex 150 and love it. You should definitely plan on buying the Kapex when it is released, as it is excellent for trim. The MFT is a bit more of a hassle for miter cuts, but it more than makes up for it with the other stuff. Might be a hassle for an outfeed table, but you can use your tablesaw to support stuff you're cutting with your MFT ;D. I also use a 1400 and 1900. Try the Domino if you can stretch out and get it. I'm so digging the OF1400, it's the best router I've ever used, but I'd go cheaper if you only want to put it in a table.

 

[The Dude]

6. Should I do it? (Guess that's like asking a drunk if I should have another drink...) ;D

It's not the caboose the kills ya......"...it's the inability to stop once you start..."  Practice a bit of 449 and you'll be fine.

Good Luck on the commencement Saturday.  Regarding the router upside down in the table.... Psssst...think orange!

Timmy C

 

[Ned]

Looks like Johnbro, who started the current thread, has seen this thread, but just in case,

Never buy the same size rail.

Ned

 

[johnbro]

Big thanks to everyone who answered! Definitely changed my thinking on rail sizes and which sander. I'll see if I can demo the ETS on Saturday. Didn't know I could upgrade the rail length on a saw purchase. Great idea... I'll keep you posted on how this goes.

BTW I was crosscutting some 2x6 last night (rough carpentry for lambing pens for LOML) with the old Model 77 skilsaw and decided I was sick and tired of the @#$% binding and kicking out of the cut. Just a matter of time before I slice something delicate off. Guess the SCMS is in my future regardless. I know the Festool 55 would work but I also need to cut 4x PT lumber and other crap and don't like doing that with good tools/blades.

Cheers,

John

 

[Dave Rudy]

Dave, I'm just curious, what length of rail did you actually get? 

It's the 95".  Since my primary use is cutting down sheet goods, it works adequately (have to start the cut a little behind the rail and finish the cut a little over to do a full 8').  If I needed something longer, even occasionally, I'd agree with you about longer rails.  But the 95 is easy to get on and off the sheets and is just long enough to complete the cut along a full sheet.  I probably would have gotten a longer rail, but the 95 is the longest which is drilled for the LR 32, so, two birds with one stone.

 

[Dave Rudy]

I'm so digging the OF1400, it's the best router I've ever used, but I'd go cheaper if you only want to put it in a table.

Agreed.  For on top routing, this one is out of the ballpark.  All Festools are good, some are just over the top.  The 1400 is the latter.  Doesn't make sense to use it in a table, though, for a number of reasons.  You can get a bigger motor cheaper and won't miss the 1400 features if it's buried underneath the table.